Author Topic: Transexual  (Read 7127 times)

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Offline starvingniglet

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Re: Transexual
« Reply #75 on: November 12, 2014, 04:45:45 am »
Do I handle it poorly?

haven't seen anything like that so far

but....no matter where you go, there you are
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Offline Spectre

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Re: Transexual
« Reply #76 on: November 12, 2014, 04:53:29 am »

You're not really saying anything.  Surgeries cause physical harm, okay.  The surgeries are performed to "facilitate a facade of changing genealogy" which is an "acquiescence to demands of a mind with a disorder"?  Where are you getting this stuff?

The APA is behind me, so what evidence do you have of this being a facade resulting from mental disorder?

I'm sorry my vocabulary is confusing you however the research is not "behind you" there is a lot of debate and conflicting reasoning about treatment, body dysmorphia ( http://www.adaa.org/understanding-anxiety/related-illnesses/other-related-conditions/body-dysmorphic-disorder-bdd ) is a very real disorder note the word disorder that you apparently suffer from there is a debate to be had about the effectiveness of treating it as the Gender Dysphoria hence why the situation has been and is still being debated in terms of treatments and practical diagnosis

The facade would be thinking you are a woman you empirically are not cannot and will not EVER be a female you are genetically male and your disorder is telling you to cosmetically alter yourself to meet perceived standards of being a female. This is what I mean by acquiescence to your disorder, transitioning is not a treatment but the execution of an impulse to become something you are not genetically based purely on an unwell mind believing that you can become female through harmful treatments.

going back to slaves example if someone fully believes with every fiber of their being that they are a unicorn that is not treated by surgically giving them a horn and pills to grow a luscious coat the mind is unwell and out of sync biologically with the rest of the body and would be treated as such

Offline fanglekai

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Re: Transexual
« Reply #77 on: November 12, 2014, 04:59:32 am »
Sorry Obbe, after I posted that was like, "Wait that's not even part of what he was asking about..."

But didn't feel like writing more until now.

You preach about "making progress"and civil rights, and then say you're not preaching about progress and civil rights? So what are you doing here?  If we should all be honest, why did you lie to all of us?

I'm here expressing my thoughts and opinions, not pushing my transsexual religion.  If I seem preachy it's probably because this stuff hits kinda close to home and I have very strong feelings on the subject.  Really not trying to demand that anyone believe what I do.  Just presenting those beliefs for everyone else to inspect.  Most people probably don't think about this stuff very often.

I lied to you 'cause it gets old carrying this identity around with me, even on the internet.  Like transsexualism is this thing that simply must pervade throughout every aspect of my life.  Can't I just be a girl for a little while, on the internet?  When I have to be a trans girl lame jokes and pathetic harassment is a daily occurrence.

That in and of itself is anecdotal evidence and not backed up by fact or studies

surgeries do cause harm to the human body a male physiology is not equipped for the hormones or the difference in genitalia this is an indisputable fact this in and of itself is a mutilation of healthy organs to facilitate a facade of changing genealogy this is not a treatment to symptoms this is an acquiescence to demands of a mind with a disorder in the same vain as not trying to treat schizoid disorders and allowing people to have multiple personalities or other delusions unchecked

You're not really saying anything.  Surgeries cause physical harm, okay.  The surgeries are performed to "facilitate a facade of changing genealogy" which is an "acquiescence to demands of a mind with a disorder"?  Where are you getting this stuff?

The APA is behind me, so what evidence do you have of this being a facade resulting from mental disorder?

it's not a religion herp derp

Offline equanimity

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Re: Transexual
« Reply #78 on: November 12, 2014, 05:20:27 am »
What exactly does BDD have to do with gender dysphoria?  They're distinctly different things.  We're just going in circles now anyway.

Heading in a different direction, should people not be allowed to take hormones and undergo surgeries if they want them?  Because people really do want these things, and even if they were outlawed they would be performed out of country.  What about muh freedoms and whatever?  I feel so much less anxiety being on the hormones.


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Offline fanglekai

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Re: Transexual
« Reply #79 on: November 12, 2014, 05:30:13 am »
What exactly does BDD have to do with gender dysphoria?  They're distinctly different things.  We're just going in circles now anyway.

Heading in a different direction, should people not be allowed to take hormones and undergo surgeries if they want them?  Because people really do want these things, and even if they were outlawed they would be performed out of country.  What about muh freedoms and whatever?  I feel so much less anxiety being on the hormones.

Should people be allowed to fuck kids if they want?
Should people be allowed to grow, harvest, use and sell marijuana?
Should people be allowed to grow coca leaves, harvest them, produce cocaine and sell it?
Should people be allowed to grow poppies, harvest them, produce heroine and sell it?

Should people be allowed to raise animals and butcher them any way they see fit and then sell the meat?

Offline Spectre

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Re: Transexual
« Reply #80 on: November 12, 2014, 05:47:54 am »
What exactly does BDD have to do with gender dysphoria?  They're distinctly different things.  We're just going in circles now anyway.

Heading in a different direction, should people not be allowed to take hormones and undergo surgeries if they want them?  Because people really do want these things, and even if they were outlawed they would be performed out of country.  What about muh freedoms and whatever?  I feel so much less anxiety being on the hormones.

some people feel better mutilating themselves what's your point? just because it makes you "feel good" doesn't mean there isn't actual disorders that require treatment at play. People can get all the self harming surgeries that they want but the cost of such surgeries and the repercussions of that are on them no one else treatment is the option that should be supported not the indulgences in token feel good nonsense that becomes a drain on health care and society for cosmetic issues arising from defects in brain chemistry

Offline equanimity

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Re: Transexual
« Reply #81 on: November 12, 2014, 03:34:43 pm »
Should people be allowed to fuck kids if they want?
Should people be allowed to grow, harvest, use and sell marijuana?
Should people be allowed to grow coca leaves, harvest them, produce cocaine and sell it?
Should people be allowed to grow poppies, harvest them, produce heroine and sell it?

Should people be allowed to raise animals and butcher them any way they see fit and then sell the meat?

All of those things involve other people.  What we're talking about is medical autonomy and the right to self-determination.  A more apt comparison would be like when Spectre brought up body integrity identity disorder, which was one the most interesting comparisons I've ever seen made.  One of the common theories as to why people feel this way about their bodies is that, as a result of x factors (hormones, genetic stuff, etc.) influencing the prenatal brain, the body map that exists in their brains is that of the opposite sex.

And from the BIID wiki page: "The cause of BIID is unknown. One theory states that the cause of BIID is a neurological failing of the brain's inner body mapping function (located in the right parietal lobe). According to this theory, the brain mapping does not incorporate the affected limb in its understanding of the body's physical form."

some people feel better mutilating themselves what's your point? just because it makes you "feel good" doesn't mean there isn't actual disorders that require treatment at play. People can get all the self harming surgeries that they want but the cost of such surgeries and the repercussions of that are on them no one else treatment is the option that should be supported not the indulgences in token feel good nonsense that becomes a drain on health care and society for cosmetic issues arising from defects in brain chemistry


Guess what I'm saying is, what harm is this really doing?  In the cases of people that don't regret their decisions.  And then when taking into account those cases, should those who come to regret what they've had done, and future "regretters", be reason to deny everyone these surgeries?  Keeping in mind we don't have solid statistics (happy:regret ratio) to work with.

Could be compared to other surgeries, if we must.  Kinda hate making this comparison, but a lot of women regret their decision to have breast augmentation surgery, so should this procedure not be offered to anyone?  Could even make the ridiculous assertation that anyone wanting breast augmentation is mentally ill and should just learn to accept their bodies as God intended.


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Offline Spectre

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Re: Transexual
« Reply #82 on: November 12, 2014, 04:08:47 pm »
Guess what I'm saying is, what harm is this really doing?  In the cases of people that don't regret their decisions.  And then when taking into account those cases, should those who come to regret what they've had done, and future "regretters", be reason to deny everyone these surgeries?  Keeping in mind we don't have solid statistics (happy:regret ratio) to work with.

Could be compared to other surgeries, if we must.  Kinda hate making this comparison, but a lot of women regret their decision to have breast augmentation surgery, so should this procedure not be offered to anyone?  Could even make the ridiculous assertation that anyone wanting breast augmentation is mentally ill and should just learn to accept their bodies as God intended.

You clearly do not know what BDD is because wanting breast augmentation for purely cosmetic reason falls exactly under that and the point I have made multiple time that you have ignored is not that people should be legally disallowed to mutilate their bodies, but that surgery for cosmetic reasons is not something that should be burdened by the health care system as a "treatment" when it is not. You have the freedom to do that if you so choose you however do not have the freedom to demand that it is accepted as a treatment or that you be perceived as a woman when you objectively are not and the only perception that you are is from a mind faced with a disorder, Just as schizoid people cannot demand to be treated as 2 people because their mind tells them they are it's pandering to delusion.

As pointed out by your example breast augmentation is an elective process done for cosmetic body image reasons and not done to help cure or treat any underlying mental health issues. If some woman wants bigger tits but can't afford it that is no one else's responsibility to provide that for them the same can be said of transitions.

also great job using wiki as a source
« Last Edit: November 12, 2014, 04:11:06 pm by Spectre »

Offline equanimity

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Re: Transexual
« Reply #83 on: November 13, 2014, 01:23:21 am »
You clearly do not know what BDD is because wanting breast augmentation for purely cosmetic reason falls exactly under that and the point I have made multiple time that you have ignored is not that people should be legally disallowed to mutilate their bodies, but that surgery for cosmetic reasons is not something that should be burdened by the health care system as a "treatment" when it is not. You have the freedom to do that if you so choose you however do not have the freedom to demand that it is accepted as a treatment or that you be perceived as a woman when you objectively are not and the only perception that you are is from a mind faced with a disorder, Just as schizoid people cannot demand to be treated as 2 people because their mind tells them they are it's pandering to delusion.

As pointed out by your example breast augmentation is an elective process done for cosmetic body image reasons and not done to help cure or treat any underlying mental health issues. If some woman wants bigger tits but can't afford it that is no one else's responsibility to provide that for them the same can be said of transitions.

also great job using wiki as a source

Yeah there were a few reasons I didn't like the implant comparison.  We should decide what we're discussing though.  If you want to talk health care systems that's cool with me.  Takes us to the same place anyway.

So I dunno where you live, but here in the US these surgical procedures are not in any way covered by the government, and are almost never covered by private insurance plans. Usually they are specifically excluded.  What they do cover is visits with therapists, psychiatrists and endocrinologists, and usually the medications themselves.  That's to be expected though, unless you want more government oversight in these things in order to bar people from seeing specialists for certain things.  Seems like a bad idea though, and trans folk seeing an endo twice a year isn't a huge drain on taxpayers or insurance companies or whatever.  Estrogen is easy to come by and dirt cheap.

Surgeries.  Decidedly not covered most of the time here, but hopefully will be someday.  Why would they be covered?  They would need to be deemed "medically necessary".  Why would they be considered medically necessary?  Because this isn't mental illness, and many people could not live without it.  It's likely that quite a few people would commit suicide if it turned out they wouldn't be able to undergo this operation.  And there are hoops to jump through to try to ensure they won't regret the decision.

Signatures from 2 mental health professionals, one being a PhD.  12 months prior psychological therapy/evaluation, 12 months of being on hormones, 12 months of living as the preferred gender.

Anyway, we're back to the whole mental illness vs. real thing discussion.  Most modern psychologists, including the APA, are with me.  Nothing's set in stone though, and we really don't know the cause of transsexualism.  There are some solid theories backed by biological evidence, but we're in the beginning stages of exploring this vastly complex topic.  To be absolutely and staunchly sure one way or another is kind of jumping the gun a little.  Some people regret the surgery, and some feel as though it saved their lives.

So idk.  It's fine if you don't think this is a "medical necessity" and would prefer it not be covered by insurance companies and the like.  To me that seems kind of petty, especially considering that with so few trans people around it wouldn't really raise costs very much.  Like what's it to you if you're helping to pay for these surgeries?  They're helping you cover your costs, and people insistent on living unhealthy lifestyles are the real expenses here.  To pick and choose the benefits you're comfortable with other people having is lame.  You don't know what this experience is like, and you probably only see it as portrayed in the media and on the internet with people like me.  Deciding from so far away that their medical issues shouldn't be covered is... guess I'm just repeating myself.  It's especially sad when the medical professionals who study these things push for the costs to be covered and are met with ignorant backlash.

What's wrong with wiki?  We're having a friendly discussion on a messageboard, this isn't an academic paper.  And that link was actually in support of an argument you made, I just thought it was interesting.


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Offline -SpectraL

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Re: Transexual
« Reply #84 on: November 13, 2014, 01:32:56 am »

I tried wearing a bow tie once. Took one look in the mirror, ripped it off and threw it away.

Offline mizled

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Re: Transexual
« Reply #85 on: November 13, 2014, 01:38:23 am »

I tried wearing a bow tie once. Took one look in the mirror, ripped it off and threw it away.

Thermal underwear is scratchy.
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Offline Spectre

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Re: Transexual
« Reply #86 on: November 13, 2014, 01:50:36 am »
You clearly do not know what BDD is because wanting breast augmentation for purely cosmetic reason falls exactly under that and the point I have made multiple time that you have ignored is not that people should be legally disallowed to mutilate their bodies, but that surgery for cosmetic reasons is not something that should be burdened by the health care system as a "treatment" when it is not. You have the freedom to do that if you so choose you however do not have the freedom to demand that it is accepted as a treatment or that you be perceived as a woman when you objectively are not and the only perception that you are is from a mind faced with a disorder, Just as schizoid people cannot demand to be treated as 2 people because their mind tells them they are it's pandering to delusion.

As pointed out by your example breast augmentation is an elective process done for cosmetic body image reasons and not done to help cure or treat any underlying mental health issues. If some woman wants bigger tits but can't afford it that is no one else's responsibility to provide that for them the same can be said of transitions.

also great job using wiki as a source

Yeah there were a few reasons I didn't like the implant comparison.  We should decide what we're discussing though.  If you want to talk health care systems that's cool with me.  Takes us to the same place anyway.

So I dunno where you live, but here in the US these surgical procedures are not in any way covered by the government, and are almost never covered by private insurance plans. Usually they are specifically excluded.  What they do cover is visits with therapists, psychiatrists and endocrinologists, and usually the medications themselves.  That's to be expected though, unless you want more government oversight in these things in order to bar people from seeing specialists for certain things.  Seems like a bad idea though, and trans folk seeing an endo twice a year isn't a huge drain on taxpayers or insurance companies or whatever.  Estrogen is easy to come by and dirt cheap.

Surgeries.  Decidedly not covered most of the time here, but hopefully will be someday.  Why would they be covered?  They would need to be deemed "medically necessary".  Why would they be considered medically necessary?  Because this isn't mental illness, and many people could not live without it.  It's likely that quite a few people would commit suicide if it turned out they wouldn't be able to undergo this operation.  And there are hoops to jump through to try to ensure they won't regret the decision.

Signatures from 2 mental health professionals, one being a PhD.  12 months prior psychological therapy/evaluation, 12 months of being on hormones, 12 months of living as the preferred gender.

Anyway, we're back to the whole mental illness vs. real thing discussion.  Most modern psychologists, including the APA, are with me.  Nothing's set in stone though, and we really don't know the cause of transsexualism.  There are some solid theories backed by biological evidence, but we're in the beginning stages of exploring this vastly complex topic.  To be absolutely and staunchly sure one way or another is kind of jumping the gun a little.  Some people regret the surgery, and some feel as though it saved their lives.

So idk.  It's fine if you don't think this is a "medical necessity" and would prefer it not be covered by insurance companies and the like.  To me that seems kind of petty, especially considering that with so few trans people around it wouldn't really raise costs very much.  Like what's it to you if you're helping to pay for these surgeries?  They're helping you cover your costs, and people insistent on living unhealthy lifestyles are the real expenses here.  To pick and choose the benefits you're comfortable with other people having is lame.  You don't know what this experience is like, and you probably only see it as portrayed in the media and on the internet with people like me.  Deciding from so far away that their medical issues shouldn't be covered is... guess I'm just repeating myself.  It's especially sad when the medical professionals who study these things push for the costs to be covered and are met with ignorant backlash.

What's wrong with wiki?  We're having a friendly discussion on a messageboard, this isn't an academic paper.  And that link was actually in support of an argument you made, I just thought it was interesting.

There's no physiological need for transition it's mental = no coverage for surgeries the same way there isn't coverage for boob and nose jobs

if you want a cosmetic surgery you pay for a cosmetic surgery if you want actual treatment and medications to cope with the disorder that should be covered as mental health

Offline equanimity

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Re: Transexual
« Reply #87 on: November 13, 2014, 02:04:36 am »
Medical necessity, not physiological necessity.  I mean that's their verbiage, in my experience.

What treatments and medications would help people cope with this?  Could zombify them with hardcore drugs, but why would you?  They can lead full lives without that junk, so long's they get the HRT and surgeries they need.


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Offline Spectre

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Re: Transexual
« Reply #88 on: November 13, 2014, 02:06:04 am »
Medical necessity, not physiological necessity.  I mean that's their verbiage, in my experience.

What treatments and medications would help people cope with this?  Could zombify them with hardcore drugs, but why would you?  They can lead full lives without that junk, so long's they get the HRT and surgeries they need.

there is not a medical need they body will continue to function perfectly healthy perhaps even more healthy than a body on HRT and surgeries

there are a lot of people that express improvements simply through counseling there isn't a 100% perfect treatment for any mental health illness at all 

Offline equanimity

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Re: Transexual
« Reply #89 on: November 13, 2014, 02:30:55 am »
I'm kinda bored of this now.


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