2. Because Mormonism teaches one to think logically (believe it or not). Also, and this is my opinion, I believe that since Mormonism is based on fundamental truths, we can use it as more established truth to build off of.

3. Eh, there's no real point to this other than you seeing my point of view a little bit.

4. Actually it does justify all actions since nothing matters. There are no morals because it will all amount to the same thing in the end. Death, which is the end of all.

But besides that, you know what? I know exactly what you mean. You want to do what you want to do. You are master of your own life. Period. I can understand that. I can sympathize. Who cares what some stupid ancient book says you should do? Why should you owe allegiance to some mysterious deity who doesn't even have the decency to show himself? Screw that, you've got better things to do. You have your life to live and you're going to live it to its fullest.

You believe that others should also come to this belief. You reason that if they realized what they were missing, if they just realized that they aren't really beholden to anyone or anything at all, they could be free too, just as you are.

I understand.

And it's tempting to believe. Incredibly so in fact. And it even makes a good amount of sense at first glance which just broadens its appeal. But man, I'm sorry but I know better. (6.)  And even further, I've seen the effects of disobeying the commandments and I know its effects intimately. It's great at first, when you're sinning, but sooner or later, the consequences WILL begin to rear their ugly head. Over and over and over again. I've seen it. And, SJ, my friend, did I ever tell you the definition of insanity?

5. No, you shouldn't ignore truth at all, no matter what it is. You're right. I was just trying to prove in this point how horrible nonexistence would be as a fate. And it's good that you love life. It's great. Mormonism is about having MORE of that. Not less. If you can believe it. And yes, it makes sense. I'm not defending it here simply because it sounds nice. It all makes perfect sense to me.

Sorry it took so long to reply.

Quote from: Shark Jumper on June 01, 2014, 10:45:33 pm

No, my being against Christianity is not null and void. This is because there are specific parts of Christianity that employ fear based control and servitude to a mighty celestial dictator. Atheism has none of that, making it a negligible factor when determining the morality of a society that identifies as it.

No, there are specific Christian denominations that think like that and promote those teachings...

Well, of course I think it's horrific, but I think it's downright untrue as well so it's irrelevant to me.

1. See point 7 then.

2. Of course there's no actual proof. Because if there was proof of a soul, that would be proof of God. And God doesn't want that. He wants faith. More on this later.

We know about the veil because we were told about it. Just as we were told about how the world began in Genesis and how Jesus went around, preaching the gospel in the New Testament. And the veil doesn't make you forget EVERYTHING, just everything that happened before you were born.

Yes, of course, beings are born and they die. Their bodies do decompose. I don't know exactly what you're claiming here or if you're asking something.

One thing you need to remember is that the body is a TOOL used by the soul. The soul is bound to it as long as the body is living. Like a computer. If the monitor goes out, does that mean the whole computer is broken? No. Just the monitor. When parts of the brain die, that means the soul can no longer make use of those parts. So, it effectively gets a "No Signal" from those parts of the brain. When the body ceases to live altogether, the body relinquishes its hold on the soul and the soul moves on to the Spirit World.

I should also add that the soul is indeed made of matter but a matter that's so refined and pure that it's impossible to see with our eyes or our tools.

Primal intelligences vary greatly in their potential. Not all of them are human. We don't know too much about them but we do know that they are infinite in number. So it wouldn't be a problem at all to fill this entire earth. So a primal intelligence is made into a soul which is usually assigned a time and place to be on an earth of some sort with a body. That is the basic process of how beings are, for lack of a better word, made.

3. See point 2.

4. Sorry, I wasn't being clear here. We existed at first as primal intelligences then we became fully fledged souls, then we obtained bodies, and so on. Finally, we reach a stage where we become gods ourselves. How that will work exactly, I don't really know. This is way down the line though. Like WAAAYYYYYYYYYY DDOOOOOOOOWWWWWNNNN the line.

5. lol No, no, no, no. Becoming perfect does not mean you need to be EXACTLY THE SAME as God himself. But again, remember the definition of perfection: to be whole and undamaged. To basically be better than yourself. So much to the point where you can no longer improve. Until you're an utter master of everything that was, is, and shall be. Everyone has flaws. The only one that didn't was Jesus Christ. Studying evolution is not a flaw. It's just what they're doing and has no real correlation with what we're discussing right now. One thing you also need to know is that while God is just, he is also merciful. He loves us completely and wants the absolute best for us. He is our HEAVENLY FATHER after all. His work is "to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." (Immortality and eternal life are two very separate things BTW. The former means you can no longer be split from your body which can no longer be damaged in any way and the latter means a life of a god.) His work isn't to condemn as many of us filthy humans as he can.

6. You're right. It would require more proof than that. But I also think you're misunderstanding me when I say "personal proof". I'll just relate to you my personal story of how I found out the church was REALLY true. Perhaps you'll understand then.

I was rather young when I first prayed. Must have been about, oh, 11 or 12 years old, give or take. I was riding off of my parents testimony that the church was true for so long, but finally, it stopped being a good reason to believe in the church. I knew that MILLIONS of people had prayed and received a confirmation of true in their hearts and I thought that was enough for me, but as time went on, it really wasn't. And that's when I knew I needed to pray and learn for myself. So, that night, I kneeled down in my bedroom and pray to know if the church was true, if the scriptures were true, and if Joseph Smith really was a true prophet of God, and man, I got hit by a metaphorical train that night.

This feeling I all of a sudden felt, it was so insanely strong. It was a feeling of pure, blissful happiness. Of love. Of amazing clarity. And it came out of nowhere. And then I knew in my heart that yes, the church was true, the scriptures were true, and Joseph was indeed a prophet. I knew down to the depths of my own soul. And ever since, that feeling and that moment has stayed with me my entire life. And even now, not too long ago, I experienced this same feeling again. Perhaps even a little stronger. I won't say how that came about though as that's another long story I don't have time for here.

And that's what I mean when I say "personal proof". You can have this confirmation too if you wanted. You just need to read the Book of Mormon at least somewhat and then pray with full purpose of heart and real intent (again, those two are important) and ask if it's true.

7. Mormonism is a growing religion too. Actually, it's one of the things that separates us from a bunch of other christian churches. Other churches say they have the Bible and they don't need any more of God's word. We take a MUCH more different stance. Specifically, we believe in literal continued revelation from God, whether it comes to us through the promptings of the Holy Ghost or through our prophet. So yes, Mormonism is always expanding as well.

Another thing you seem to think is that religion and science cannot exist together for some reason. Let me bring up a great quote I read a while ago.

Quote from: Kendal B. Hunter

There really is no such thing as "science." There are just various theories in various states of verification. Likewise, there are various religions, with various strengths. When we ask if science conflicts with religion, which apples are we comparing? The question itself needs to be questioned.

Your science is effective critical thinking and collaboration. Which is just fine. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. However, what I have a problem with is when people take some new theory that scientists put out and tout it as proof against religion. Yeah, I don't like that very much at all. Let's assume for just a second that Mormonism is completely true. Don't you think the conclusions we come to when practicing science should align with established truth?

Which leads me to one the things in Mormonism that I just love completely. The more you study it, the more you notice how much SENSE it all makes. It's beautiful really how everything connects in a seamless way. Everything has a purpose. Everything has a suitable reason. I don't find this with other religions or beliefs at all. They always seem to have SOMETHING wrong with them in my eyes. And there is proof besides the type I talked about above. But those are for later when you have faith.

There is one thing I'd like to bring up though and that is this:
"When you accept the universe/life as being probably a giant fucking fluke, it becomes so much more wonderful and amazing."

I'm sorry but I REALLY don't understand this one bit. How would it be nice if the whole universe just happened because of random chance? That means everything we were, are, will be, and have done, is utterly POINTLESS. Everything would be pointless. How is ceasing to exist upon death a good thing in the slightest? It's not even a neutral thing. It's downright horrifying.

Anyway, I should add that a lot of the questions you're asking and subjects you're talking about are rather advanced stuff. Besides all that though, thanks. I'm glad you mean well and aren't just here to argue like a lot of people on the internet do. I appreciate that.

Quote from: Shark Jumper on May 30, 2014, 01:07:09 am

In conclusion. I have no respect for religions, specifically Christianity. Let me explain why.
When someone tells me to respect a religion simply because it exists, or is widespread, I ask you the following.
       Why should I respect an ancient idea, that was spread across the ancient world through bloodshed, fear, and torture. When crusaders came to a new country or continent, they presented the inhabitants with two options. Submit to our religion, or die. They tortured, forced, and indoctrinated people into believing the same things that they did. There is absolutely no respect in that. So when you tell me to respect a religion simply because it is, think of the ancient conquest of bloodshed and horror that lead to that religion being so widespread, and you'll understand why I roll my eyes at you.

No idea should simply command your respect but that's a poorly thought out response to your hypothetical scenario. Think of all the terrible acts that have been committed in the name of Darwinism (Eugenics) and Marxism (which generally has a hard-on for atheism and is vehemently anti-religion).

I realize Arnox's question was specifically about Christianity but I hope you know that religion != God. You can find everything you mentioned to be perfectly silly but still believe in some other high power.

I also disagree on your burden of proof stance. Not believing in a high power is just as much a statement as is believing. The real question here is "Who or what created the universe?" and the answer you give basically equates to "I don't know, but not that."

And the award for sexiest death reference goes to Infinityshock
Well done mate have this Dodo egg as your prize