My brother started his intensive outpatient program for his drug addictions, and understandably has reservations about the whole thing. He says they want him to join 3 (?) 12 step programs, and they count regular church sermons as one of them if a person so chooses. I'm a little confused on that point and it's hard getting information out of him even though I'm terribly interested lol. One of the issues he's having though is the whole "admit to powerlessness/give yourself up to a higher power" thing. This is probably a common problem people find themselves faced with, and I found some really interesting stuff online about it, but I thought I'd bring it up here to see what you guys thought.
One of the things I found when searching for non-theistic approaches to the 12-step program was replacing the 12 steps with the four noble truths, and then the eightfold path. Haven't had time to really compare and contrast those twelve with the AA stuff but it made sense to me at a glance- powerlessness being paired up with accepting the reality of suffering, etc. My brother's not too into spirituality at this point in his life though so maybe there's something else.
People regularly involved in spiritual practice are generally happier than those who don't. Just my opinion, but there's a reason people are able to fill those voids with spirituality/religion- namely that such practices are normal, healthy and vastly important pieces of the human experience.
People regularly involved in spiritual practice are generally happier than those who don't. Just my opinion, but there's a reason people are able to fill those voids with spirituality/religion- namely that such practices are normal, healthy and vastly important pieces of the human experience.
I agree with that completely. I'm an extremely spiritual person. But, you said that your brother was not. So, I was merely stating that he's likely going to have to learn to develop his spirituality in order to overcome his addictions. And, the best path is whatever works for him. But, if he can't do that, then it's all just goobled-gook to him and it won't help him.
I think what happens is that people realize that life sucks and that they desire more from this world then what is available... And, this gives us an overwhelming feeling of desolation. A lot of people turn to drugs and alcohol to try to quiet down the cognitive dissonance. But, instead of drowning it out, we should all embrace it and try to overcome.
have tried out Buddhism.. but in the end I cannot for certain know if a god exists.You exist. Reciprocal causality.
The higher power can literally be anything. I've heard some interesting takes on that. I've been to countless NA meeting and quite a few AA as well as an in patient program that utilized the twelve steps.
One (dumb) bitch said her higher power was the chair she sits in because it holds her up and is reliable.
Personally I have always been agnostic. I've read the bible, debated religion ad nauseum.. have tried out Buddhism.. but in the end I cannot for certain know if a god exists. Until I experience some sort of proof of a gods existence, I cannot put my faith into it.
I always debate this shit with my best friend. He worries that I'm not going to go to heaven because I don't believe in God.. n when I ask why he DOES believe, he said because he has faith.. I say it's BLIND faith as he has no evidence.
So I would tell your brother not to worry too much about the higher power thing. If he wants to he can just ignore that aspect of the program. They are generally just good ways to live and act, regardless of religious affiliation.
Same with the bible, whether you believe or not, Jesus did exist and he was a very good person.. probably the best person that ever lived. His teachings are nice and if everybody followed them the world would be a better place.
Maybe some time down the line he will have an epiphany or a religious experience that will make him believe.. until then I would just ignore the Higher Power thing.
The religious approach is bound to fail a nonreligious person. The main way around it that I can think of is: 1) You have some power over the universe 2) Allowing the universe to have power over you prevents you from doing what you want.
It's like how Buddhists give up possessions because they recognize that it is their possessions that rule over them, not visa versa.have tried out Buddhism.. but in the end I cannot for certain know if a god exists.You exist. Reciprocal causality.Spoiler(http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs51/f/2009/261/f/6/mind_fuck_27_by_furika.jpg)
I'm probably not understanding you, but that seems in direct conflict with what the program wants. Allowing the universe to have power over you, and thus giving it power to prevent you from doing what you want seems like a bad thing. Or do you mean that the thing you want to do is harmful drugs?I left out some stuff, but you're on the right track. This whole thing is predicated on it being fine and dandy to be an addict if that's your choice and you can justify it... if it's your true will (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_Will#Thelema). Thing is, that's very hard to do because it requires an authentic belief that being an addict is your destiny and something you actually want to do. So yeah, it conflicts with the 12 step approach a bit. Allowing the universe(/drugs/any external force) to keep you from your true will means the ultimate loss, leaving you stuck in a pergatory of unfulfilled potential, whereas taking control and doing "what thou wilt" represents the only possible success. As far as having power over the universe, you can resist it or you can influence it by working with what you can (which in turn affects other things, which affect other things, etc).
I'm probably not understanding you, but that seems in direct conflict with what the program wants. Allowing the universe to have power over you, and thus giving it power to prevent you from doing what you want seems like a bad thing. Or do you mean that the thing you want to do is harmful drugs?I left out some stuff, but you're on the right track. This whole thing is predicated on it being fine and dandy to be an addict if that's your choice and you can justify it... if it's your true will (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_Will#Thelema). Thing is, that's very hard to do because it requires an authentic belief that being an addict is your destiny and something you actually want to do. So yeah, it conflicts with the 12 step approach a bit. Allowing the universe(/drugs/any external force) to keep you from your true will means the ultimate loss, leaving you stuck in a pergatory of unfulfilled potential, whereas taking control and doing "what thou wilt" represents the only possible success. As far as having power over the universe, you can resist it or you can influence it by working with what you can (which in turn affects other things, which affect other things, etc).
Basically cognitive behavioral therapy with a tinge of voodoo.
I always debate this shit with my best friend. He worries that I'm not going to go to heaven because I don't believe in God.. n when I ask why he DOES believe, he said because he has faith.. I say it's BLIND faith as he has no evidence.
solipsisticOh no you didn't. >:(
It comes across as being a very amoral brand of philosophy. Which isn't "bad" in and of itself, and I guess it's all been amoral with the higher power thing. But what you're talking about seems to suggest that a person's true purpose is whatever they feel like, and applying that to drug addiction makes me think it goes further. Fascinating, but a little solipsistic imo.Solipsism = "only my perspective is valid." All perspectives are valid. Simultaneously. ;D It's more like whatever they've consistently felt like/gravitated towards their whole lives... some degree of consistency involved. A lot of people aren't even aware of what that is until someone else reveals it to them. "Hey, you're really good at ____." The thing is that they have to choose to accept the conclusion. It can't be forced on them.
EVERYTHING is based on Good Faith! Even science is nothing more than faith. The truth is that no one has a fucking clue about anything. Most of the best scientists agree that life could just be a simulation or a hologram. They're all fucking stupid. We should round up all the "experts" in the world and drown them.<3 Epistemological anarchism.
solipsisticOh no you didn't. >:(It comes across as being a very amoral brand of philosophy. Which isn't "bad" in and of itself, and I guess it's all been amoral with the higher power thing. But what you're talking about seems to suggest that a person's true purpose is whatever they feel like, and applying that to drug addiction makes me think it goes further. Fascinating, but a little solipsistic imo.Solipsism = "only my perspective is valid." All perspectives are valid. Simultaneously. ;D It's more like whatever they've consistently felt like/gravitated towards their whole lives... some degree of consistency involved. A lot of people aren't even aware of what that is until someone else reveals it to them. "Hey, you're really good at ____." The thing is that they have to choose to accept the conclusion. It can't be forced on them.
Something similar is the antipsychiatry movement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-psychiatry) in that you embrace your flaws and turn them into strengths so you can move on to the next level (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_Disintegration). All options are viable. Which ones are best for you?
Some other options would be Pantheism or Panentheism, which make a lot more sense than theism, and have scientific support. The 8-fold path is actually pantheistic. Theirs still a belief in a higher power, but it's not the bearded jealous spiteful deity kind, but rather an all-encompassing omniverse or intelligent infinity, of which you are an individuation of.
I would introduce him to the Conversations with God series by Neale Donald Walsch. It may sound religious, but it actually criticizes organized religion. These books have changed many peoples lives, including mine when I was a teenager. It's a little confusing at first, but eventually makes total sense and busts out perfectly rational arguments.
most outpatient treatment programs where I'm from, will require a person to attend at least 2 aa/na meetings a week. Of the several that I've experienced, all included the 12 steps as a foundation to their program of recovery. The treatment classes themselves would generally focus on the first 5 steps, and the rest was encouraged to continue on doing as you 'worked the program' of AA or NA and leaned on your higher power, practiced the steps, maintained fellowship with your new brothers and sisters, etc etc.
I suppose I've been to about 100 AA meetings in my life, and can easily say that was only a handful of those that actually impacted me. The rest were a combination of me attending so I could get my signature at the end to prove I was there, or me uncomfortably attempting to really be a part of it, sharing when I didn't want to and forcing myself to talk to people after the meetings. I mean, I won't say there aren't some cool and interesting people that I've met at aa meetings, but overall the program represents nothing more than an overly complicated and time consuming replacement addiction for the previous addiction, and as was stated earlier, any replacement will do. If seeking after a higher power and talking about the same thing every fucking week at every fucking meeting sounds like a nice new life, more power to ya.
The saddest thing is that so many of these treatment programs force this on their patients as a cure-all, our-way-or-no-way mandate, and objection results in getting kicked out, and whatever legal consequences result from that as so many programs around here are filled with adults young and old who are only there because they have to follow through with the bullshit mandated treatment program instilled on them after getting one DUI or busted with a bag of pot.
The saddest thing is that so many of these treatment programs force this on their patients as a cure-all, our-way-or-no-way mandate, and objection results in getting kicked out, and whatever legal consequences result from that as so many programs around here are filled with adults young and old who are only there because they have to follow through with the bullshit mandated treatment program instilled on them after getting one DUI or busted with a bag of pot.
"It's okay if you don't believe in God, but there has to be some force greater than ourselves out there, right?"
^I'm really hoping he was exaggerating.
"It's okay if you don't believe in God, but there has to be some force greater than ourselves out there, right?"
^I'm really hoping he was exaggerating.
Well, this is an obvious statement. It's not like we shit ourselves into existence. It might not be a God, but there is certainly something out there beyond our knowledge. This makes it a greater force than ourselves. I call it Truth.
"It's okay if you don't believe in God, but there has to be some force greater than ourselves out there, right?"
^I'm really hoping he was exaggerating.
Well, this is an obvious statement. It's not like we shit ourselves into existence. It might not be a God, but there is certainly something out there beyond our knowledge. This makes it a greater force than ourselves.
And for the rest of you spiritual fuck you never tapped into the singularity and I can not and will not help you. You are looking for salvation from an imaginary figure
And for the rest of you spiritual fuck you never tapped into the singularity and I can not and will not help you. You are looking for salvation from an imaginary figureWhich... you are trying to become. :???:
Wisdom.My brother started his intensive outpatient program for his drug addictions, and understandably has reservations about the whole thing. He says they want him to join 3 (?) 12 step programs, and they count regular church sermons as one of them if a person so chooses. I'm a little confused on that point and it's hard getting information out of him even though I'm terribly interested lol. One of the issues he's having though is the whole "admit to powerlessness/give yourself up to a higher power" thing. This is probably a common problem people find themselves faced with, and I found some really interesting stuff online about it, but I thought I'd bring it up here to see what you guys thought.
One of the things I found when searching for non-theistic approaches to the 12-step program was replacing the 12 steps with the four noble truths, and then the eightfold path. Haven't had time to really compare and contrast those twelve with the AA stuff but it made sense to me at a glance- powerlessness being paired up with accepting the reality of suffering, etc. My brother's not too into spirituality at this point in his life though so maybe there's something else.
It's all just a bunch of gobbled-gook to try to help you fill whatever void you had in your life that lead you to the drug addiction in the first place. You can fill this void with anything you would like. 12 steps, 4 truths, 8 folds, 72 virgins, etc. In the end, it doesn't really matter.