Author Topic: A non-theistic approach to 12 step addiction recovery programs?  (Read 1972 times)

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Offline equanimity

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A non-theistic approach to 12 step addiction recovery programs?
« on: October 15, 2014, 11:19:47 pm »
My brother started his intensive outpatient program for his drug addictions, and understandably has reservations about the whole thing.  He says they want him to join 3 (?) 12 step programs, and they count regular church sermons as one of them if a person so chooses.  I'm a little confused on that point and it's hard getting information out of him even though I'm terribly interested lol.  One of the issues he's having though is the whole "admit to powerlessness/give yourself up to a higher power" thing.  This is probably a common problem people find themselves faced with, and I found some really interesting stuff online about it, but I thought I'd bring it up here to see what you guys thought.

One of the things I found when searching for non-theistic approaches to the 12-step program was replacing the 12 steps with the four noble truths, and then the eightfold path.  Haven't had time to really compare and contrast those twelve with the AA stuff but it made sense to me at a glance- powerlessness being paired up with accepting the reality of suffering, etc.  My brother's not too into spirituality at this point in his life though so maybe there's something else.


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Offline Ninja

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Re: A non-theistic approach to 12 step addiction recovery programs?
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2014, 11:29:49 pm »
My brother started his intensive outpatient program for his drug addictions, and understandably has reservations about the whole thing.  He says they want him to join 3 (?) 12 step programs, and they count regular church sermons as one of them if a person so chooses.  I'm a little confused on that point and it's hard getting information out of him even though I'm terribly interested lol.  One of the issues he's having though is the whole "admit to powerlessness/give yourself up to a higher power" thing.  This is probably a common problem people find themselves faced with, and I found some really interesting stuff online about it, but I thought I'd bring it up here to see what you guys thought.

One of the things I found when searching for non-theistic approaches to the 12-step program was replacing the 12 steps with the four noble truths, and then the eightfold path.  Haven't had time to really compare and contrast those twelve with the AA stuff but it made sense to me at a glance- powerlessness being paired up with accepting the reality of suffering, etc.  My brother's not too into spirituality at this point in his life though so maybe there's something else.

It's all just a bunch of gobbled-gook to try to help you fill whatever void you had in your life that lead you to the drug addiction in the first place.  You can fill this void with anything you would like.  12 steps, 4 truths, 8 folds, 72 virgins, etc.  In the end, it doesn't really matter.
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Offline equanimity

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Re: A non-theistic approach to 12 step addiction recovery programs?
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2014, 11:36:39 pm »
People regularly involved in spiritual practice are generally happier than those who aren't.  Just my opinion, but there's a reason people are able to fill those voids with spirituality/religion- namely that such practices are normal, healthy and vastly important pieces of the human experience.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2014, 11:54:56 pm by equanimity »


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Offline Ninja

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Re: A non-theistic approach to 12 step addiction recovery programs?
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2014, 11:50:39 pm »
People regularly involved in spiritual practice are generally happier than those who don't.  Just my opinion, but there's a reason people are able to fill those voids with spirituality/religion- namely that such practices are normal, healthy and vastly important pieces of the human experience.

I agree with that completely.  I'm an extremely spiritual person.  But, you said that your brother was not.  So, I was merely stating that he's likely going to have to learn to develop his spirituality in order to overcome his addictions.  And, the best path is whatever works for him.  But, if he can't do that, then it's all just goobled-gook to him and it won't help him. 
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Offline Ninja

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Re: A non-theistic approach to 12 step addiction recovery programs?
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2014, 11:54:24 pm »
I think what happens is that people realize that life sucks and that they desire more from this world then what is available...  And, this gives us an overwhelming feeling of desolation.  A lot of people turn to drugs and alcohol to try to quiet down the cognitive dissonance.  But, instead of drowning it out, we should all embrace it and try to overcome.
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Offline equanimity

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Re: A non-theistic approach to 12 step addiction recovery programs?
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2014, 12:35:31 am »
People regularly involved in spiritual practice are generally happier than those who don't.  Just my opinion, but there's a reason people are able to fill those voids with spirituality/religion- namely that such practices are normal, healthy and vastly important pieces of the human experience.

I agree with that completely.  I'm an extremely spiritual person.  But, you said that your brother was not.  So, I was merely stating that he's likely going to have to learn to develop his spirituality in order to overcome his addictions.  And, the best path is whatever works for him.  But, if he can't do that, then it's all just goobled-gook to him and it won't help him. 

Y'know, this just might be the unfortunate truth in this situation.  It feels a little frustrating to see him so angry about this stuff when I have a genuine interest in exploring it and seeing where it might take a person.  He's so so angry at everything right now, and seems utterly incapable of approaching this stuff with an open mind.  It's sad that the people who would most benefit from an open heart are the ones least likely to have one.

Guess that's one of those silly parts of this absurd existence of ours.

I think what happens is that people realize that life sucks and that they desire more from this world then what is available...  And, this gives us an overwhelming feeling of desolation.  A lot of people turn to drugs and alcohol to try to quiet down the cognitive dissonance.  But, instead of drowning it out, we should all embrace it and try to overcome.

fo' sho'  :tup:


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Offline Umbrella Corp

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Re: A non-theistic approach to 12 step addiction recovery programs?
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2014, 12:47:02 am »
The higher power can literally be anything.  I've heard some interesting takes on that.  I've been to countless NA meeting and quite a few AA as well as an in patient program that utilized the twelve steps.

One (dumb) bitch said her higher power was the chair she sits in because it holds her up and is reliable.

Personally I have always been agnostic.  I've read the bible, debated religion ad nauseum.. have tried out Buddhism.. but in the end I cannot for certain know if a god exists.  Until I experience some sort of proof of a gods existence, I cannot put my faith into it.

I always debate this shit with my best friend.  He worries that I'm not going to go to heaven because I don't believe in God.. n when I ask why he DOES believe, he said because he has faith.. I say it's BLIND faith as he has no evidence.

So I would tell your brother not to worry too much about the higher power thing.  If he wants to he can just ignore that aspect of the program.  They are generally just good ways to live and act, regardless of religious affiliation. 

Same with the bible, whether you believe or not, Jesus did exist and he was a very good person.. probably the best person that ever lived.  His teachings are nice and if everybody followed them the world would be a better place. 

Maybe some time down the line he will have an epiphany or a religious experience that will make him believe.. until then I would just ignore the Higher Power thing.
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Offline Vulture

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Re: A non-theistic approach to 12 step addiction recovery programs?
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2014, 12:55:34 am »
The religious approach is bound to fail a nonreligious person. The main way around it that I can think of is: 1) You have some power over the universe 2) Allowing the universe to have power over you prevents you from doing what you want.

It's like how Buddhists give up possessions because they recognize that it is their possessions that rule over them, not visa versa.

have tried out Buddhism.. but in the end I cannot for certain know if a god exists.
You exist. Reciprocal causality.
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« Last Edit: October 16, 2014, 01:00:03 am by Vulture »
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Offline equanimity

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Re: A non-theistic approach to 12 step addiction recovery programs?
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2014, 01:44:10 am »
The higher power can literally be anything.  I've heard some interesting takes on that.  I've been to countless NA meeting and quite a few AA as well as an in patient program that utilized the twelve steps.

One (dumb) bitch said her higher power was the chair she sits in because it holds her up and is reliable.

Personally I have always been agnostic.  I've read the bible, debated religion ad nauseum.. have tried out Buddhism.. but in the end I cannot for certain know if a god exists.  Until I experience some sort of proof of a gods existence, I cannot put my faith into it.

I always debate this shit with my best friend.  He worries that I'm not going to go to heaven because I don't believe in God.. n when I ask why he DOES believe, he said because he has faith.. I say it's BLIND faith as he has no evidence.

So I would tell your brother not to worry too much about the higher power thing.  If he wants to he can just ignore that aspect of the program.  They are generally just good ways to live and act, regardless of religious affiliation. 

Same with the bible, whether you believe or not, Jesus did exist and he was a very good person.. probably the best person that ever lived.  His teachings are nice and if everybody followed them the world would be a better place. 

Maybe some time down the line he will have an epiphany or a religious experience that will make him believe.. until then I would just ignore the Higher Power thing.

Really good post.  He's only been to this thing twice and still hasn't figured out exactly how it's gonna work, from what I can tell.  The AA/NA thing is separate from this program too; something he has to find on his own.  His attitude worries me though.  He's looking for reasons to think the entire thing is bullshit, and today when he was angry and shouting he said he might just go serve the jail sentence instead of putting up with the program.  Can't say I blame him honestly; it's pretty intense.  2 and a half hours of this group class thing 4 times a week, random UAs/BAs, and plus he needs to find 3 (?) 12 step programs outside of all this.

Maybe inpatient would be easier.

Hopefully he'll find some way to make the steps work for him.  I'd rather him be worshiping chairs than slowly killing himself with drugs, tbh.

Faith in God wouldn't be nearly as meaningful if it weren't blind, imo.  But I'm not big into the monotheism stuff either.  Christianity is a great religion, but it's certainly not for everyone.

Religion and rationality exist outside of each other (again, just my opinion), and this isn't to say that religion is bullshit because it's irrational.  Irrationality gets a bad rap these days, in the West.  We're not 100% logical creatures existing for efficiency and measurable knowledge.  There's a deep fascination and inherent connection with the unknowable residing within each of us, and to ignore that in favor of cold rationality really seems to miss the point of this whole existence thing.  imo.

Not that I'm accusing anyone of living wrongly or anything.  Many atheists even are spiritual.  And we're all going to get to where we're going, so there's no need for harsh judgements or whatever.

The religious approach is bound to fail a nonreligious person. The main way around it that I can think of is: 1) You have some power over the universe 2) Allowing the universe to have power over you prevents you from doing what you want.

It's like how Buddhists give up possessions because they recognize that it is their possessions that rule over them, not visa versa.

have tried out Buddhism.. but in the end I cannot for certain know if a god exists.
You exist. Reciprocal causality.
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I'm probably not understanding you, but that seems in direct conflict with what the program wants.  Allowing the universe to have power over you, and thus giving it power to prevent you from doing what you want seems like a bad thing.  Or do you mean that the thing you want to do is harmful drugs?
« Last Edit: October 16, 2014, 01:46:43 am by equanimity »


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Offline Vulture

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Re: A non-theistic approach to 12 step addiction recovery programs?
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2014, 03:03:22 am »
I'm probably not understanding you, but that seems in direct conflict with what the program wants.  Allowing the universe to have power over you, and thus giving it power to prevent you from doing what you want seems like a bad thing.  Or do you mean that the thing you want to do is harmful drugs?
I left out some stuff, but you're on the right track. This whole thing is predicated on it being fine and dandy to be an addict if that's your choice and you can justify it... if it's your true will. Thing is, that's very hard to do because it requires an authentic belief that being an addict is your destiny and something you actually want to do. So yeah, it conflicts with the 12 step approach a bit. Allowing the universe(/drugs/any external force) to keep you from your true will means the ultimate loss, leaving you stuck in a pergatory of unfulfilled potential, whereas taking control and doing "what thou wilt" represents the only possible success. As far as having power over the universe, you can resist it or you can influence it by working with what you can (which in turn affects other things, which affect other things, etc).

Basically cognitive behavioral therapy with a tinge of voodoo.
Quote from: millionsofdeadcats
Instead of finding food in the wilderness, I am preying on flocks of consumer goods.

Offline equanimity

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Re: A non-theistic approach to 12 step addiction recovery programs?
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2014, 03:14:17 am »
I'm probably not understanding you, but that seems in direct conflict with what the program wants.  Allowing the universe to have power over you, and thus giving it power to prevent you from doing what you want seems like a bad thing.  Or do you mean that the thing you want to do is harmful drugs?
I left out some stuff, but you're on the right track. This whole thing is predicated on it being fine and dandy to be an addict if that's your choice and you can justify it... if it's your true will. Thing is, that's very hard to do because it requires an authentic belief that being an addict is your destiny and something you actually want to do. So yeah, it conflicts with the 12 step approach a bit. Allowing the universe(/drugs/any external force) to keep you from your true will means the ultimate loss, leaving you stuck in a pergatory of unfulfilled potential, whereas taking control and doing "what thou wilt" represents the only possible success. As far as having power over the universe, you can resist it or you can influence it by working with what you can (which in turn affects other things, which affect other things, etc).

Basically cognitive behavioral therapy with a tinge of voodoo.

How does moralism play into all of this?  You've piqued my interest but something feels missing.


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Offline Vulture

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Re: A non-theistic approach to 12 step addiction recovery programs?
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2014, 03:15:44 am »
Moralism as in...? Responsibility to self? *scratches head*
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Offline Ninja

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Re: A non-theistic approach to 12 step addiction recovery programs?
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2014, 03:20:51 am »

I always debate this shit with my best friend.  He worries that I'm not going to go to heaven because I don't believe in God.. n when I ask why he DOES believe, he said because he has faith.. I say it's BLIND faith as he has no evidence.


EVERYTHING is based on Good Faith!  Even science is nothing more than faith.  The truth is that no one has a fucking clue about anything.  Most of the best scientists agree that life could just be a simulation or a hologram.  They're all fucking stupid.  We should round up all the "experts" in the world and drown them.
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Offline equanimity

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Re: A non-theistic approach to 12 step addiction recovery programs?
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2014, 03:23:52 am »
Sorry, I meant morality.  Words are hard ;)

It comes across as being a very amoral brand of philosophy.  Which isn't "bad" in and of itself, and I guess it's all been amoral with the higher power thing.  But what you're talking about seems to suggest that a person's true purpose is whatever they feel like, and applying that to drug addiction makes me think it goes further.  Fascinating, but a little solipsistic imo.


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Offline Vulture

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Re: A non-theistic approach to 12 step addiction recovery programs?
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2014, 04:25:07 am »
solipsistic
Oh no you didn't.  >:(
It comes across as being a very amoral brand of philosophy.  Which isn't "bad" in and of itself, and I guess it's all been amoral with the higher power thing.  But what you're talking about seems to suggest that a person's true purpose is whatever they feel like, and applying that to drug addiction makes me think it goes further.  Fascinating, but a little solipsistic imo.
Solipsism = "only my perspective is valid." All perspectives are valid. Simultaneously. ;D It's more like whatever they've consistently felt like/gravitated towards their whole lives... some degree of consistency involved. A lot of people aren't even aware of what that is until someone else reveals it to them. "Hey, you're really good at ____." The thing is that they have to choose to accept the conclusion. It can't be forced on them.

Something similar is the antipsychiatry movement in that you embrace your flaws and turn them into strengths so you can move on to the next level. All options are viable. Which ones are best for you?
« Last Edit: October 16, 2014, 04:40:44 am by Vulture »
Quote from: millionsofdeadcats
Instead of finding food in the wilderness, I am preying on flocks of consumer goods.