Author Topic: A non-theistic approach to 12 step addiction recovery programs?  (Read 1966 times)

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Offline Vulture

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Re: A non-theistic approach to 12 step addiction recovery programs?
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2014, 04:26:00 am »
EVERYTHING is based on Good Faith!  Even science is nothing more than faith.  The truth is that no one has a fucking clue about anything.  Most of the best scientists agree that life could just be a simulation or a hologram.  They're all fucking stupid.  We should round up all the "experts" in the world and drown them.
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Offline Quetzalolcoatlol

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Re: A non-theistic approach to 12 step addiction recovery programs?
« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2014, 04:41:46 am »
Some other options would be Pantheism or Panentheism, which make a lot more sense than theism, and have scientific support. The 8-fold path is actually pantheistic. Theirs still a belief in a higher power, but it's not the bearded jealous spiteful deity kind, but rather an all-encompassing omniverse or intelligent infinity, of which you are an individuation of.

I would introduce him to the Conversations with God series by Neale Donald Walsch. It may sound religious, but it actually criticizes organized religion. These books have changed many peoples lives, including mine when I was a teenager. It's a little confusing at first, but eventually makes total sense and busts out perfectly rational arguments.

Offline Umbrella Corp

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Re: A non-theistic approach to 12 step addiction recovery programs?
« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2014, 04:58:46 am »
That is along the lines that I think these days.  Never heard of that before tho, pantheism. 

The universe is made up of energy, everything is energy even matter.  There does seem to be some sort of intelligent design to the laws of physics.  There is no free choice, everything that has ever happened was pre ordained at the moment of creation.  Imagine the big bang.  Now imagine all the energy flying out from the singularity.  Everything that happens after that was determined by the logistics at the moment the big bang happened.  Everything.  Say you have 2 universes that are exactly the same pop into existence.  They will evolve to be exactly the same because it is just energy being flung from a central point into space.  We like to think that we have free will and that we make decisions, but really we are just energy, our thoughts are chemical processes that are a continuation of the spread of energy throughout the universe.  Everything does indeed happen for a reason because it was always bound to happen from the start. 

Now say a third big bang happened with just .0000000000001% less energy.  The result would be completely different from our universe, this would be a parallel universe.  All a part of the multiverse where infinite combinations of possibilities have happened, are happening, and will happen.

I'm rambling now but yes I believe in fate, in such that from the moment of creation all events were predetermined.  In fact predetermined isn't quite the right word.. I don't know if there is a word for what I'm describing.  It's like when a bullet is shot from a gun.  From the moment the bullet starts flying, everything that happens to it in the future is already set to happen.  It will fly forward, and following the laws of physics will hit a target, transfer it's kinetic energy, then stop. 
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Offline mmmmmmmQuestions

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Re: A non-theistic approach to 12 step addiction recovery programs?
« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2014, 05:04:30 am »
most outpatient treatment programs where I'm from, will require a person to attend at least 2 aa/na meetings a week. Of the several that I've experienced, all included the 12 steps as a foundation to their program of recovery. The treatment classes themselves would generally focus on the first 5 steps, and the rest was encouraged to continue on doing as you 'worked the program' of AA or NA and leaned on your higher power, practiced the steps, maintained fellowship with your new brothers and sisters, etc etc.

I suppose I've been to about 100 AA meetings in my life, and can easily say that was only a handful of those that actually impacted me. The rest were a combination of me attending so I could get my signature at the end to prove I was there, or me uncomfortably attempting to really be a part of it, sharing when I didn't want to and forcing myself to talk to people after the meetings. I mean, I won't say there aren't some cool and interesting people that I've met at aa meetings, but overall the program represents nothing more than an overly complicated and time consuming replacement addiction for the previous addiction, and as was stated earlier, any replacement will do. If seeking after a higher power and talking about the same thing every fucking week at every fucking meeting sounds like a nice new life, more power to ya.

The saddest thing is that so many of these treatment programs force this on their patients as a cure-all, our-way-or-no-way mandate, and objection results in getting kicked out, and whatever legal consequences result from that as so many programs around here are filled with adults young and old who are only there because they have to follow through with the bullshit mandated treatment program instilled on them after getting one DUI or busted with a bag of pot.

Offline Zanick

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Re: A non-theistic approach to 12 step addiction recovery programs?
« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2014, 06:10:57 am »
http://www.sacbee.com/news/local/crime/article2768782.html

It looks like the best thing he can do is argue with them.

Offline equanimity

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Re: A non-theistic approach to 12 step addiction recovery programs?
« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2014, 05:04:37 pm »
solipsistic
Oh no you didn't.  >:(
It comes across as being a very amoral brand of philosophy.  Which isn't "bad" in and of itself, and I guess it's all been amoral with the higher power thing.  But what you're talking about seems to suggest that a person's true purpose is whatever they feel like, and applying that to drug addiction makes me think it goes further.  Fascinating, but a little solipsistic imo.
Solipsism = "only my perspective is valid." All perspectives are valid. Simultaneously. ;D It's more like whatever they've consistently felt like/gravitated towards their whole lives... some degree of consistency involved. A lot of people aren't even aware of what that is until someone else reveals it to them. "Hey, you're really good at ____." The thing is that they have to choose to accept the conclusion. It can't be forced on them.

Something similar is the antipsychiatry movement in that you embrace your flaws and turn them into strengths so you can move on to the next level. All options are viable. Which ones are best for you?

Yeah, it just seemed solipsistic because drug addiction and some other places my mind went seemed as though they could be very selfish, and even harmful to other people.  Hard to push for destinies of the self that harm other people without solipsism, imo.

Some other options would be Pantheism or Panentheism, which make a lot more sense than theism, and have scientific support. The 8-fold path is actually pantheistic. Theirs still a belief in a higher power, but it's not the bearded jealous spiteful deity kind, but rather an all-encompassing omniverse or intelligent infinity, of which you are an individuation of.

I would introduce him to the Conversations with God series by Neale Donald Walsch. It may sound religious, but it actually criticizes organized religion. These books have changed many peoples lives, including mine when I was a teenager. It's a little confusing at first, but eventually makes total sense and busts out perfectly rational arguments.

Yeah I'm pantheistic myself.  It makes the most sense.  Book series looks pretty interesting!  I might pick it up for myself, but my brother spends most of his time punching holes the walls and breaking things when he's not at work.  Suggesting he read a series of philosophical books would not go over well, unfortunately.  Definitely fun stuff to talk about here, at least :)

most outpatient treatment programs where I'm from, will require a person to attend at least 2 aa/na meetings a week. Of the several that I've experienced, all included the 12 steps as a foundation to their program of recovery. The treatment classes themselves would generally focus on the first 5 steps, and the rest was encouraged to continue on doing as you 'worked the program' of AA or NA and leaned on your higher power, practiced the steps, maintained fellowship with your new brothers and sisters, etc etc.

I suppose I've been to about 100 AA meetings in my life, and can easily say that was only a handful of those that actually impacted me. The rest were a combination of me attending so I could get my signature at the end to prove I was there, or me uncomfortably attempting to really be a part of it, sharing when I didn't want to and forcing myself to talk to people after the meetings. I mean, I won't say there aren't some cool and interesting people that I've met at aa meetings, but overall the program represents nothing more than an overly complicated and time consuming replacement addiction for the previous addiction, and as was stated earlier, any replacement will do. If seeking after a higher power and talking about the same thing every fucking week at every fucking meeting sounds like a nice new life, more power to ya.

The saddest thing is that so many of these treatment programs force this on their patients as a cure-all, our-way-or-no-way mandate, and objection results in getting kicked out, and whatever legal consequences result from that as so many programs around here are filled with adults young and old who are only there because they have to follow through with the bullshit mandated treatment program instilled on them after getting one DUI or busted with a bag of pot.

Wow, thanks so much for sharing.  Kind of seems sad that so many people are forced into these programs.  You have to wonder how giving yourself over to a higher power became the standard treatment for these people.  My brother was upset, because even in the video they watched about the 12-step program seemed insulting.

"It's okay if you don't believe in God, but there has to be some force greater than ourselves out there, right?"

^I'm really hoping he was exaggerating.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2014, 05:07:54 pm by equanimity »


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Offline Ninja

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Re: A non-theistic approach to 12 step addiction recovery programs?
« Reply #21 on: October 16, 2014, 06:59:06 pm »


The saddest thing is that so many of these treatment programs force this on their patients as a cure-all, our-way-or-no-way mandate, and objection results in getting kicked out, and whatever legal consequences result from that as so many programs around here are filled with adults young and old who are only there because they have to follow through with the bullshit mandated treatment program instilled on them after getting one DUI or busted with a bag of pot.

This is why if you get busted with a bag of pot, you plead not guilty and argue that it's a plant, and no one has the authority to outlaw Nature and that they can fuck off and die and then serve your time in jail.  Then when you get out, you firebomb the judges house and roll a fatty.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2014, 07:03:16 pm by Ninja »
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Offline Ninja

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Re: A non-theistic approach to 12 step addiction recovery programs?
« Reply #22 on: October 16, 2014, 07:02:13 pm »

"It's okay if you don't believe in God, but there has to be some force greater than ourselves out there, right?"

^I'm really hoping he was exaggerating.

Well, this is an obvious statement.  It's not like we shit ourselves into existence.  It might not be a God, but there is certainly something out there beyond our knowledge.  This makes it a greater force than ourselves.  I call it Truth.
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Offline Quetzalolcoatlol

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Re: A non-theistic approach to 12 step addiction recovery programs?
« Reply #23 on: October 16, 2014, 07:19:47 pm »

"It's okay if you don't believe in God, but there has to be some force greater than ourselves out there, right?"

^I'm really hoping he was exaggerating.

Well, this is an obvious statement.  It's not like we shit ourselves into existence.  It might not be a God, but there is certainly something out there beyond our knowledge.  This makes it a greater force than ourselves.  I call it Truth.

"It's okay if you don't believe in God, but there has to be some force greater than ourselves out there, right?"

^I'm really hoping he was exaggerating.

Well, this is an obvious statement.  It's not like we shit ourselves into existence.  It might not be a God, but there is certainly something out there beyond our knowledge.  This makes it a greater force than ourselves.

Like the US government

Offline X0MB13

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Re: A non-theistic approach to 12 step addiction recovery programs?
« Reply #24 on: October 16, 2014, 09:36:54 pm »
Fuck anyone program that involves god or higher powers that many of us don't believe in. Try www.smartrecovery.org and never ask a stupid question. I purposely make people relapse because there is a joy in it
Sometimes...you can cry until there's nothing wet in you. You can scream and curse to where your throat rebels and ruptures. You can pray, all you want, to whatever god you think will listen. And, still it makes no difference. It goes on, with no sign as to when it might release you. And you know that if it ever did relent...it would not be because it cared.

Offline X0MB13

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Re: A non-theistic approach to 12 step addiction recovery programs?
« Reply #25 on: October 16, 2014, 09:39:15 pm »
And for the rest of you spiritual fuck you never tapped into the singularity and I can not and will not help you. You are looking for salvation from an imaginary figure
Sometimes...you can cry until there's nothing wet in you. You can scream and curse to where your throat rebels and ruptures. You can pray, all you want, to whatever god you think will listen. And, still it makes no difference. It goes on, with no sign as to when it might release you. And you know that if it ever did relent...it would not be because it cared.

Offline starvingniglet

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Re: A non-theistic approach to 12 step addiction recovery programs?
« Reply #26 on: October 16, 2014, 09:41:09 pm »
And for the rest of you spiritual fuck you never tapped into the singularity and I can not and will not help you. You are looking for salvation from an imaginary figure

'the singularity'

 :facepalm:
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Offline Max Headroom

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Re: A non-theistic approach to 12 step addiction recovery programs?
« Reply #27 on: October 16, 2014, 10:01:54 pm »
apparently higher power doesn't mean god, it just means anything worth having/looking up to/wanting. a higher power can be a toaster oven, it could be not being addicted, it could be the concept of a republic society, it could be a dorito chip, it could be overworld 2 in super mario 3, it could be an executable file extension, anything.
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Offline Ninja

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Re: A non-theistic approach to 12 step addiction recovery programs?
« Reply #28 on: October 17, 2014, 05:00:17 am »
http://www.infowars.com/atheist-jailed-for-denying-higher-power-in-calif-drug-rehab-gets-2m/

Found this today.  Pretty interesting and relevant to this topic.  Guy who was required to do a rehab program, because of the courts was jailed for refusing to accept a higher power and awarded $2m dollars, because the State violated his Freedom of Religion. 

LOL.

Fuck the government!
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Offline Ninja

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Re: A non-theistic approach to 12 step addiction recovery programs?
« Reply #29 on: October 17, 2014, 05:07:02 am »
Also, off-topic, but the singularity is a fucking joke.  If you are talking about the idea that humans will bestow sentience upon machines...  Give me a fucking break.  You're better off trying to teach your dog to drive a car. 
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