High school students charged with sex crimes in football hazing incidents

[equanimity]

http://www.npr.org/2014/10/11/355386142/7-students-charged-with-sex-crimes-in-n-j-hazing-incident

Maybe it's morbid of me, but I always wonder exactly what happened when you read these vague reports.  There's mention of "sexual penetration".  Most of the crimes seem minor, and this hick town is up in arms about football being cancelled for the season.  Angry parents insisting that the entire team shouldn't be punished for the actions of 7 kids.

It would be pretty messed up if they didn't cancel for the season, imo.  High school football isn't even important, especially when compared to these issues of bullying and sexual abuse.  What kind of culture exists here, where it's acceptable behavior to sexually harass and abuse one another if you're part of a sports team?

[Slave of the Beast]

The individuals involved in and convicted of sexual assault did something wrong, the team didn't. The innocent should not pay for the crimes of the guilty. This is the basis for a fair and just society. 

However if the objective is to punish them all for the 'crime' of being part of a patriarchal, cis-scum, testosterone-fuelled, aggressive and domineering 'alpha' culture that results in victory on the pitch, and probably elsewhere in (later) life, then I'm sure some right-on middle-class beta faggot with an agenda will soon be steam-rolling these 'hicks' into the nearest sexual awareness and gender studies class so that they can be forced to start growing manginas in earnest.

[DaGuru]

Obvious troll thread is OBVIOUS....because only a complete moron would think the entire team (and thusly the ENTIRE TOWN) should be punished for the actions of a small few. Way to find another unique way to get negative attention Zek. 

Also, "bullying" and "hazing" are not synonymous terms despite what a bunch of do-gooder bleeding hearts want to spew. The entire essence of hazing, is CONSENSUALLY putting yourself in an uncomfortable situation to join whatever group. You go into it knowing you are going to endure bullshit, there is zero "bullying" going on. Whereas true bullying is people going about their lives minding their own business, and other people or strangers decide to fuck with you with no endgame or reward or camaraderie after it. But of course someone like Zek likes to play the "consumate victim" card any time they are a little squeamish, so its just par for the course.

Quit attaching other cutesy buzzphrases inaccurately to stuff as a feeble attempt to further demonize what actually went on.

[equanimity]

That's the thing though.  It's not a punishment for the innocent, but a measure to highlight these issues and get people to open up and discuss the reasons this may have happened.  And hopefully the time will also be used to carefully investigate the coaching staff and any parents that may have been involved.

Football can wait a year, but this isn't the sort of thing that should be kept hush hush as the city tries to return to a state of normalcy.  This happened, and it happened for a reason.  The parents complaining about the football season being cancelled might do better worrying about what their kids are going through as part of this football team and maybe getting them into therapy if it seems appropriate.

And DaGuru, the specifics are being kept confidential to protect the kids involved, but the article did mention that there had been unwanted sexual penetration happening.  To me that sounds like rape, and not a case of "boys will be boys".

[Slave of the Beast]

That's the thing though.  It's not a punishment for the innocent, but a measure to highlight these issues and get people to open up and discuss the reasons this may have happened.  And hopefully the time will also be used to carefully investigate the coaching staff and any parents that may have been involved.

So, what did they do?

Discussion can happen regardless.

[DaGuru]

That's the thing though.  It's not a punishment for the innocent, but a measure to highlight these issues and get people to open up and discuss the reasons this may have happened.  And hopefully the time will also be used to carefully investigate the coaching staff and any parents that may have been involved.

Spoken like a true bleeding heart do-gooder. Feel good rhetoric tramples on common sense....all the while logic and reason are removed from the equation.

[Max Headroom]

lol sayreville...

[equanimity]

What did who do?  The innocent?  I don't understand what you're asking.

Discussion can always happen, but it often doesn't.  And in many cases measures taken to get people being open and honest with one another are helpful in building healthier societies.

[MoaningLisa]

both, bullying and hazing, (not synonyms as DaGuru said) have their place.

yes, I am a straight white male between the ages of 18-24, probably the second-highest demographic for this type of shit...but both of them have positive implications as well.

bullying, especially in 7th-9th grade serves its purpose to prepare people for the mean cold world ahead, granted, I wasn't bullied to the point I wanted to kill myself, it was just normal middle school shenanigans, but now I'm older, its definitely prepared me for life. there is definitely a line that can't be crossed, but in its current state (no-tolerance) its doing more harm than good for high-functioning normal people.

hazing is different, it has its place and its limits. in the story in OP, it sounds like the limits were definitely exceeded. in PA, hazing is defined as-"any action or situation which recklessly or intentionally endangers the mental or physical health or safety of a student or which fully destroys or removes public or private property for the purpose of initiation or admission into or affiliation with, or as a condition for continued membership, in any group or organization, the willingness of an individual to participate in such activity notwithstanding.”

I think hazing fortifies the brotherhood of these organizations, so long as it doesn't get out of hand.

I think the organizations should be up-front about what it involves, so pledges can decide if they want to or not, and also have a bail out clause as well.

I was trying to find the whistle-blower list of hazing they have here at my school, but I can't find it. there was some stupid shit on there I remember.

I think the whole hazing/bullying movement is people who couldn't handle it in school, and are trying to figuratively get back at "butch" or "gary" or whoever bullied them in high school, and that makes them feel all big and powerful inside.

[Slave of the Beast]

What did who do?  The innocent?  I don't understand what you're asking.

You are advocating punishing the innocent (until proven guilty) football players by banning them from playing football. Clearly you think they have done something wrong, because you want them  punished for it. I'm asking you what that something is.

Discussion can always happen, but it often doesn't.  And in many cases measures taken to get people being open and honest with one another are helpful in building healthier societies.

And your evidence that banning the entire team from playing generates discussion that otherwise wouldn't happen is where, exactly?

[DaGuru]

both, bullying and hazing, (not synonyms as DaGuru said) have their place.

yes, I am a straight white male between the ages of 18-24, probably the second-highest demographic for this type of shit...but both of them have positive implications as well.

bullying, especially in 7th-9th grade serves its purpose to prepare people for the mean cold world ahead, granted, I wasn't bullied to the point I wanted to kill myself, it was just normal middle school shenanigans, but now I'm older, its definitely prepared me for life. there is definitely a line that can't be crossed, but in its current state (no-tolerance) its doing more harm than good for high-functioning normal people.

hazing is different, it has its place and its limits. in the story in OP, it sounds like the limits were definitely exceeded. in PA, hazing is defined as-"any action or situation which recklessly or intentionally endangers the mental or physical health or safety of a student or which fully destroys or removes public or private property for the purpose of initiation or admission into or affiliation with, or as a condition for continued membership, in any group or organization, the willingness of an individual to participate in such activity notwithstanding.”

I think hazing fortifies the brotherhood of these organizations, so long as it doesn't get out of hand.

I think the organizations should be up-front about what it involves, so pledges can decide if they want to or not, and also have a bail out clause as well.

I was trying to find the whistle-blower list of hazing they have here at my school, but I can't find it. there was some stupid shit on there I remember.

I think the whole hazing/bullying movement is people who couldn't handle it in school, and are trying to figuratively get back at "butch" or "gary" or whoever bullied them in high school, and that makes them feel all big and powerful inside.

Very well said, man.....the whole post from top to bottom. That's the problem with a lot of these idiotic think(?) tanks, and other pacifist groups that can't handle the harsh realities of life. There isn't even ONE finite example where lighting a candle, holding hands and "talking about" things has ever fixed a damn thing in this world.  Not one.

Like you said, its more or less just a bunch of people that are weak-minded scaredy cats needing a hug themselves...giving them some false sense of comfort or the idea they've "done something about it" for an hour or two. Yet after their vigil or committee meetings or whatever other worthless nonsense, they still go back to their real lives without any backbone or life skills....constantly looking to play the "victim" card, because they are too damn scared to stand up for themselves without other people's help.

[equanimity]

Kids are often really mean, and yeah to some extent bullying is simply a part of growing up.  What harm are the no tolerance policies doing, though?  I'm asking.  Are kids getting kicked out of school and sent to like military schools?

As far as the public service ads you see on kid's TV, I don't see that being harmful.  Teaching kids to stand up for their friends is good and all, but bullying is this strange social phenomenon that's not going anywhere no matter what we tell our kids.  The best thing parents can do is teach their children the virtues of compassion, bravery and level-headedness.

What did who do?  The innocent?  I don't understand what you're asking.

You are advocating punishing the innocent (until proven guilty) football players by banning them from playing football. Clearly you think they have done something wrong, because you want them  punished for it. I'm asking you what that something is.

Not punishment.  A chance to step back from the situation and carefully evaluate it, as a community.  If they all come to the sincere decision that nothing was wrong except in the minds of those 7 boys, then great.  That's what you hope for here.  An opportunity to talk about these difficult subjects is a lot more important than a single season of high school football, in my opinion.

Some serious shit went down.  That community owes it to the victims to sit down and talk about why.  If the season had simply continued on, the kids might have even felt alienated or guilty about making waves at all.  To shrug and assume it was an isolated incident forever in the past really does those kids a disservice.  7 kids at a minimum were alleged members of the guilty party, and as it was "hazing" it's not a huge jump to wonder if it would still be continuing had the season happened.

Discussion can always happen, but it often doesn't.  And in many cases measures taken to get people being open and honest with one another are helpful in building healthier societies.

And your evidence that banning the entire team from playing generates discussion that otherwise wouldn't happen is where, exactly?

In cases such as these, silence from the community and a wish to get back to how things were results in the victims losing their voice.  Football not happening is a glaring and obvious change from normal for this community, and it makes them uncomfortable.  Sometimes discomfort is what it takes to get the ball of positive change rolling.

But seriously.  Several cases of sexual assault involving a large number of the players on a football team is grounds for cancelling the season.  For numerous reasons.

[Slave of the Beast]

What did who do?  The innocent?  I don't understand what you're asking.

You are advocating punishing the innocent (until proven guilty) football players by banning them from playing football. Clearly you think they have done something wrong, because you want them  punished for it. I'm asking you what that something is.

Not punishment. 

Being forced to forfeit an activity is, by definition, a penalty or punishment; classic doublethink. It's like beating a child with a stick and telling them 'I'm not hitting you, I'm helping you remember this lesson I'm teaching you'.

It is a sign of mental illness.

A chance to step back from the situation and carefully evaluate it, as a community.  If they all come to the sincere decision that nothing was wrong except in the minds of those 7 boys, then great.  That's what you hope for here.  An opportunity to talk about these difficult subjects is a lot more important than a single season of high school football, in my opinion.

Again, not a shred of evidence to prove this could not have been done if the season continued as normal.

Some serious shit went down.  That community owes it to the victims to sit down and talk about why. If the season had simply continued on, the kids might have even felt alienated or guilty about making waves at all.   To shrug and assume it was an isolated incident forever in the past really does those kids a disservice.  7 kids at a minimum were alleged members of the guilty party, and as it was "hazing" it's not a huge jump to wonder if it would still be continuing had the season happened.

That is pure speculation.

Discussion can always happen, but it often doesn't.  And in many cases measures taken to get people being open and honest with one another are helpful in building healthier societies.

And your evidence that banning the entire team from playing generates discussion that otherwise wouldn't happen is where, exactly?

In cases such as these, silence from the community and a wish to get back to how things were results in the victims losing their voice.    Football not happening is a glaring and obvious change from normal for this community, and it makes them uncomfortable.  Sometimes discomfort is what it takes to get the ball of positive change rolling.

But seriously.  Several cases of sexual assault involving a large number of the players on a football team is grounds for cancelling the season.  For numerous reasons.

I asked you for evidence, not an unfounded assertion.

So far you have not demonstrated anything other than a class prejudice towards 'hicks' (I assume by this you mean working class people who like watching football), an aptitude for producing copious quantities of simpering emasculated nonsense and an unhealthy desire to punish those who've done nothing wrong.

[equanimity]

Speculating is all we can do, and in this case it definitely makes sense to cancel football for a season to sort everything out and talk to the kids at these schools.  If school officials and parents are speculating that their children might be in danger somehow, then the only sensible action to take is what they ended up doing.

It's only a season of football, and if the season had gone on and more instances of sexual abuse happened (which is not an unthinkable occurrence, obviously), the school board would find itself in a tough spot legally.  Not to mention the children who may have been harmed.

Even if you think it's dumb to use this as a measure to get people talking, you have to see that this was a series of very serious cases of sexual abuse involving children and the matter warranted inside and out investigation before allowing the team to continue on.  Right?  Or maybe I'm just crazy

If my kids were on a team and something serious involving several team members happened I'd be very upset if the season were allowed to continue on.  Somehow a very unhealthy culture was allowed to form here, and the causes should be found instead of dealing with the symptoms as they appear.  Didn't you say something similar, recently?

[Slave of the Beast]

Speculating is all we can do...

Stopped reading there. Thanks for playing.