Author Topic: Hayek's philosophy explained (stonedaneous order)  (Read 2277 times)

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Offline Bart the General

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Hayek's philosophy explained (stonedaneous order)
« on: October 01, 2014, 12:47:28 am »
posting here instead of /r/economics because they're a bunch of neoliberal phaggots

http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2014/09/hayek-and-libertarianism

AMONG the "manifestly silly and occasionally harmful positions" espoused by libertarians, "the idea of spontaneous order might be the silliest and most harmful of all", says Damon Linker in a much-read post at the Week.

This took me by surprise. It's true that Friedrich Hayek, whom Mr Linker shamelessly abuses, is the most prominent 20th-century intellectual behind the concept of spontaneous order—the theory that systems, such as markets, naturally correct, and function best without human meddling. It's true that Hayek is commonly lumped in with libertarians. It's true that spontaneous order is an idea libertarians tend to promote. Yet spontaneous order is not a libertarian idea. Crystals, the organisation of neurons in your brain, the ecosystem of the Amazon basin, and the English language are all examples of spontaneous order. According to most non-theological cosmologies, the universe itself is a spontaneous order. We should be careful not to give libertarians too much credit.

What it means to say that an order is spontaneous is simply to say its stable macro-level patterns—those things that make a complex system a system, an instance of order rather than disorder or randomness—do not come about through design, planning or imposition, but arise instead from the interaction of micro-level elements operating according to certain basic principles or rules. The order that arises spontaneously from markets, whereby prices are allowed to fluctuate freely with supply and demand, is a natural wonder admired by libertarians and non-libertarians alike. The idea that the world sometimes works this way is neither silly or harmful. It's just a fact.

So what's in Mr Linker's craw? He writes:

    Simply stated, the idea [of a spontaneous order] holds that when groups of individuals are left alone, without government oversight or regulation, they will spontaneously form a social and economic order that is superior in organization, efficiency, and the conveyance of information than an order arranged from the top down through centralized planning.

I detect at least three problems here. First, Mr Linker has got the idea of spontaneous order somehow tangled up with the idea of utopian anarchism. Second, Mr Linker seems unclear about the distinction between the unplanned development of norms or rules and the unplanned higher-order patterns that rule-bound behaviour can generate. Third, he suggests a false dichotomy between utopian anarchy and central planning.

Libertarian theorists of spontaneous order, such as Hayek, certainly do argue that central planners cannot hope to impose an economic order more attractive and beneficial than the order known to arise spontaneously from a well-functioning market system. They happen to be right about this. They do not, however, argue that when groups of individuals are left alone, innocent of all government, that the Chicago Mercantile Exchange will somehow pop into existence like a mushroom under a damp elm.

According to Adam Smith, Friedrich Hayek and everyone else who knows what he or she is talking about, well-functioning markets depend, inter alia, upon clear property rights and a judicial system that enforces agreements and resolve disputes. These institutions set the basic rules that govern the elements in the system (eg, you and me, in our capacity as buyers and sellers of goods, services, and labour) and account for its stable, higher-level emergent properties, such as allocative efficiency. The "rules of the game" determine the pattern or order that emerges when we, the players, play by those rules. The not-really-libertarian idea, if I may pursue the games metaphor, is that certain clear and simple rules can produce unpredictably complex and rewarding patterns of play. It's not that a bunch of random athletes dumped without instruction on a pitch will sooner or later spontaneously produce a gripping, well-ordered sporting spectacle. It's important not to confuse, as Mr Linker does, the process by which rules come about and the often surprising and complex patterns of activity those rules might bring about. So where do the micro-level rules that generate macro-level order originate? 

Hayek argued that the rules that give rise to the higher-level order of the market are not the result of government planning—at least not initially. They emerge from a chancy process of socio-cultural evolution, and it's by no means bound to happen. Neither Adam Smith, he of "the invisible hand", nor Hayek believed that one can simply throw people together and the institutions of modern liberal capitalism will "spontaneously" appear. The puzzle of modern economic growth is a puzzle precisely because for millennia nothing like it ever got going and then suddenly it did get going with alarming and immensely beneficial consequences. Thinkers such as Smith and Hayek are so profoundly valuable because they have helped us to recognise the role these rules play, once chanced upon, in bringing about the wealth and well-being of the extended market order. Because these rules are of such enormous utility, Smith and Hayek implored governments to codify and enforce them. That is to say, they wanted government to oversee and regulate markets, as do libertarians who count on governments to enforce contracts and define, clarify and protect property rights.   

Smith and Hayek resorted to the idea of a spontaneous order not to argue against the necessity of government, but to argue against mercantilism and the micromanagement of the economy, and to remind us that the patterns of behaviour that arise from the rules we impose through legislation often fail to match our best-laid plans. Smith's fat volumes on jurisprudence are not the work of man who believes public policy to be pointless, or that government rules are not necessary for prosperity. Hayek's magnum opus, "The Constitution of Liberty", is a work in favour of, among other things, a constitution. Reading Mr Linker, however, one gets the idea that the entire classical liberal tradition is an enterprise in state-smashing utopianism. You probably already know, as Mr Linker should know, that it's not.

State-smashing libertarians may be silly and they may be harmful. Some of them are enamoured with the idea of spontaneous order, it's true. But that's not an argument against spontaneous order any more than Hitler's vegetarianism is an argument against kale.










Basically, an excellent nonpartisan article by the economist explaining how people confuse free market capitalism with libertarian neckbeardedness. Governments acting as non interventionalist (for the most part) overseers and how regulation is entirely possible in this day and age

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Offline Bart the General

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Re: Hayek's philosophy explained (stonedaneous order)
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2014, 12:32:38 am »
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all 11 views are me furiously pressing f5

fuck this gayass forum of retarded victims and faggots

I'm the smartest and best looking person here and that's really a shame

Offline millionsofdeadcats

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Re: Hayek's philosophy explained (stonedaneous order)
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2014, 12:42:39 am »
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all 11 views are me furiously pressing f5

fuck this gayass forum of retarded victims and faggots

I'm the smartest and best looking person here and that's really a shame

I read it, the whole post, but economics is not my thing and I probably cannot give you the intelligent discussion that you require.
quote author=dragqueen slayer link=topic=1184.msg35656#msg35656 date=1412632872]Cory is fucking retarded[/quote

Offline Bart the General

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Re: Hayek's philosophy explained (stonedaneous order)
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2014, 12:48:46 am »
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all 11 views are me furiously pressing f5

fuck this gayass forum of retarded victims and faggots

I'm the smartest and best looking person here and that's really a shame

I read it, the whole post, but economics is not my thing and I probably cannot give you the intelligent discussion that you require.

Good, I'm glad someone read it, you are truly based

It's not so much about promoting intellectual discussion as it is about redefining what it means to be "libertarian" and "free market" and it just goes over how these things have become misconstrued by phaggots over the years.

Offline millionsofdeadcats

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Re: Hayek's philosophy explained (stonedaneous order)
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2014, 01:07:46 am »
It's not so much about promoting intellectual discussion as it is about redefining what it means to be "libertarian" and "free market" and it just goes over how these things have become misconstrued by phaggots over the years.

You can probably predict what my opinion on this would be, seeing as how I am far to the right of timothy mcveigh politically, I am almost on the edge of being an anarchist I am so right wing. 

I am not sure of the reasoning, and maybe I can hash it out in this thread, but I believe in absolutely no market intervention, period.  If someone buys snake oil, and they don't fucking like it, maybe next time they will be discriminating in their purchases.

 If a company lies about their product ingredients, and people find out, people might not buy it.  I believe, in my uneducated way, that 'markets' tend to themselves.

I will be back later or tomorrow to post about this further, if there are replies.
quote author=dragqueen slayer link=topic=1184.msg35656#msg35656 date=1412632872]Cory is fucking retarded[/quote

Offline LiquidIce

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Re: Hayek's philosophy explained (stonedaneous order)
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2014, 10:43:04 am »
Perhaps I am one of those liberterian neckbeards you speak of, but I see no reason why not to believe in the idea of spontaneous order. Everywhere I've been shows me that the freer the market - the faster the economic growth. At the same time, it also means a fairly free people. Paradoxically compare healthcare in Europe and in the US - the US healthcare system is far from being a free market, even when compared to the systems in Europe and who could've guessed - it's a fucking joke. However, on the flipside, look at the job markets in the US vs in Europe - Europe has much stronger labor laws so hiring and firing people is much harder whereas most places in the US have the whole at-will work thing, which means if you're not performing - you're out. I've been able to achieve much more whilst living in the US than I would have been able to do in Europe because of this.

While your post is Hayek in a nutshell, I recommend "The Road to Surfdom" as a better introduction to Hayek as well as a surprisingly up to date warning on what's happening. The book was initially written as a warning against socialism during WW2, but god damn it, I think it applies even more nowadays.

Good post, OP.

Offline Ninja

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Re: Hayek's philosophy explained (stonedaneous order)
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2014, 01:50:00 pm »
posting here instead of /r/economics because they're a bunch of neoliberal phaggots



What did you expect?  Everyone is a Keynesian, state worshipping faggot.

I'm a voluntaryist, anarcho-capitalist. 
« Last Edit: October 18, 2014, 01:52:43 pm by Ninja »
Smoke some weed and get laid!  Doctor's orders!

Offline Rook

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Re: Hayek's philosophy explained (stonedaneous order)
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2014, 05:56:01 pm »
It is definitely an interesting read, and I'll admit.. I haven't made it completely through your post yet before I had a thought I wanted to convey. While I agree that sufficient economic systems can develop without government oversight (and I in no way am trying to kiss the governments ass here), but where does security from theft and and intimidation fall in within this thesis? Is it intended that the government still serve it's purpose as enforcers or with this economic freedom is it simply up to merchants and the like to make sure they don't get robbed, scammed, or otherwise duped by fraudulent means? I'm definitely going to read over this some more.. one of the better reads I've come across in a while.
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Offline starvingniglet

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Re: Hayek's philosophy explained (stonedaneous order)
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2014, 05:58:52 pm »
is it simply up to merchants and the like to make sure they don't get robbed, scammed, or otherwise duped by fraudulent means?

Yes.
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Offline Rook

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Re: Hayek's philosophy explained (stonedaneous order)
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2014, 06:15:52 pm »
is it simply up to merchants and the like to make sure they don't get robbed, scammed, or otherwise duped by fraudulent means?

Yes.

 So is this relating to a complete absence of government in general and its effects on a possible self governed economic system? Because if there was still a government entity, I'm not sure how it would be expected to deal with people exacting their revenge for being screw over.. With all this in mind, if this is all based on the hypothetical ideal of having no government entity whatsoever, then whats to stop another organized government/country from coming in with their army and making everyone their bitch again? Considering the government does oversee national/public defense.. or is this also an expectation for common people to figure out and organize on their own as well?
The woods are lovely, dark and deep. But I have promises to keep, and miles to go before I sleep.
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Offline starvingniglet

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Re: Hayek's philosophy explained (stonedaneous order)
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2014, 06:36:04 pm »
is it simply up to merchants and the like to make sure they don't get robbed, scammed, or otherwise duped by fraudulent means?

Yes.

 So is this relating to a complete absence of government in general and its effects on a possible self governed economic system? Because if there was still a government entity, I'm not sure how it would be expected to deal with people exacting their revenge for being screw over.. With all this in mind, if this is all based on the hypothetical ideal of having no government entity whatsoever, then whats to stop another organized government/country from coming in with their army and making everyone their bitch again? Considering the government does oversee national/public defense.. or is this also an expectation for common people to figure out and organize on their own as well?

yes
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Offline Rook

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Re: Hayek's philosophy explained (stonedaneous order)
« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2014, 11:09:02 pm »
So... We can have economic freedom from blatant taxation, seizure, control, and regulation.. But in the long run we'll be sucking communist schlomg or have our asses buried in the ground? Sounds pretty shitty either way..
The woods are lovely, dark and deep. But I have promises to keep, and miles to go before I sleep.
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Offline starvingniglet

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Re: Hayek's philosophy explained (stonedaneous order)
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2014, 11:13:24 pm »
So... We can have economic freedom from blatant taxation, seizure, control, and regulation.. But in the long run we'll be sucking communist schlomg or have our asses buried in the ground? Sounds pretty shitty either way..

you assume too much....the soviets did the same in afghanistan

plus we already won one war pretty much using irregulars
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Offline Rook

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Re: Hayek's philosophy explained (stonedaneous order)
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2014, 11:51:13 pm »
I suppose it's because I live out in the country and make most of my money getting paid in cash. In fact, finding a regular stable job is about impossible or will only drive you deeper in debt.. It's much easier to get that under the table mullah... I prefer it that way. It's a small isolated independent economic system unique to the small community in which I live, yet not large enough to directly call upon any unnecessary and unwanted attention.. Most of it is labo intensive in nature.. Unregulated farmers market, shade tree mechanics, splitting/selling firewood, harvesting ginseng and other coveted botanicals, etc.. It's a lifestyle that has faded from American culture, but it does still exist.. I'm just thankful I was fortunate enough to be born in a rural underdeveloped region over say... the suburbs.. And no disrespect to those folks, but you just don't have the same opportunities elsewhere..
The woods are lovely, dark and deep. But I have promises to keep, and miles to go before I sleep.
-Robert Frost

Offline starvingniglet

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Re: Hayek's philosophy explained (stonedaneous order)
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2014, 12:04:30 am »
I suppose it's because I live out in the country and make most of my money getting paid in cash. In fact, finding a regular stable job is about impossible or will only drive you deeper in debt.. It's much easier to get that under the table mullah... I prefer it that way. It's a small isolated independent economic system unique to the small community in which I live, yet not large enough to directly call upon any unnecessary and unwanted attention.. Most of it is labo intensive in nature.. Unregulated farmers market, shade tree mechanics, splitting/selling firewood, harvesting ginseng and other coveted botanicals, etc.. It's a lifestyle that has faded from American culture, but it does still exist.. I'm just thankful I was fortunate enough to be born in a rural underdeveloped region over say... the suburbs.. And no disrespect to those folks, but you just don't have the same opportunities elsewhere..

Out where you are talking about, there isn't a cop on every corner having to keep everyone in line.  People just live their lives, and by doing so, everything sort of falls into place.  Sure there are people who do fucked up things, but that happens in america today, even with all our laws and regulations.  its not like it prevents anything, matter of fact in some cases (the drug war) it exacerbates the problems.  Even in places with very little in the way of laws and rules, i.e. parts of the old west, it really wasn't anarchy and riots. 

Most people want to be productive, and want to do the right thing.  And the ones that don't, won't let any laws stop them, they will do it regardless.  I imagine a place where, if someone hurts your family, you and the neighbors get together and take care of the problem.  Where if the roads are rutted or potholed, the locals fix the problem, without needing outside help.  Where if a factory is dumping toxins into the water, the area residents burn the fucking place to the ground. 

One may imagine all sorts of violent situations arising from such a system, but you know what?  That shit happens anyway, with the systems we have in place.  Nothing 'prevents' it.  It happens, and is happening, right fucking now.  What is the old saying, 'we traded freedom for a the illusion of security'?  We here in America are so 'domesticated' (enslaved) that we forgot what it is like to be free.
Quote from: constantinople
Wow fighting and banging indiscrimenantly, the hallmarks of a repsectable individual.