Atheism

[Shark Jumper]

Sounds good.

1. Nah, you can have a little bit of evidence and still have faith. There must always be some room for doubt though. Otherwise, it's not faith anymore. It's knowledge.

2. Mormonism doesn't resist scientific progress in any way that I know of, discounting unethical experiments of course. I don't see how Mormonism would hold us back as a species in any way. Actually, on the contrary, I think it would propel us FORWARD.

3. Well, let's bring up human evolution. Assuming again that you know Mormonism is right for a second here, wouldn't you reject that idea?

4. Oh, I see now. You like it because it justifies everything. And it does. But let me ask you something. Are you an anarchist? I'm guessing no. So you believe in some laws. Why? Well, so we can maintain order and a better system and environment for as many people as we can, right?

This is the same principle here. The commandments are given to HELP us. Not to order us around. God is trying to give us the recipe for the most ideal perfect life you could possibly imagine. We just need to choose to follow it. But hey, if you don't believe they're the way to the most ideal life, that's fine. I'm just sayin' though. The laws are there to help and guide us. Not restrict. And personally, I'm actually glad I've followed the ones I have. Adhering to them has allowed me to avoid SO many problems and has led me into situations and to things I would not have obtained had I not adhered to those commandments.

Nevertheless, it's our choice. And that's the beauty of it. We CHOOSE our exact fate. And the coolest part? You'll be completely satisfied with the outcome. Why? Because the path you take is the one most suited to you. And the consequences that follow are the ones that are suited to you as well. It's the perfect system.

5. But you've already experienced life. You know now that life is infinitely better than nothing. Heck, I could even prove this by super simple math.

3 and 0. Which is more? 3 over 0. 3 is how many times more than 0? Infinite.

So, you've already experienced what "3" is like and it's more than "0" obviously. And now, you're telling me that you don't mind going back to 0? Forever? And please don't tell me something along the lines of, 'I'm not gonna care when I'm dead.' I'm talking about right now. Does pure everlasting nothingness really appeal to you as an ending fate?

And again, I enjoy talking to you too. ^^

1. Ok! 

2. Usually I'm discussing these concepts with Christians, and I will tell that their belief holds the world back by teaching people to be satisfied with not knowing the truths about the world. With Mormonism though, which I'm not too familiar with, I cannot make that claim with the same degree of certainty that I have when using it against Christians. I'm curious to hear though, why you think it would propel us forwards?  ???

3. I'm suppose if it were certain that Mormonism was true, I would reject the idea of evolution. However, I don't see what that question is meant to prove, because there is quite a good deal of evidence supporting evolution as fact, and there is very little evidence supporting Mormonism as fact. Also, evolution just flat out makes sense and is observable.
-I'm afraid my not seeing the point of this question may be due to improper interpretation of the question. Was the answer I provided adequate?

4. I don't like it because it justifies everything. I don't believe that it justifies everything, but more along the lines of makes it so that there are no consequences. I like this because it puts people in charge of their own lives, and it puts the human race in charge of its own fate. Nobody forces a universal law or owns any person. They are human beings who own themselves.
Also, to answer your question, I actually do consider myself to be a bit of an anarchist. Anarchy has several different definitions however. The one I am talking about is when referring to a society without a publicly enforced government. I think that nearly every government results in becoming a corrupt tyrannical power house that treat its people like cattle. However, like you said, lawlessness does cause a bit of a problem. But there is a solution. There can be laws without a government if a society agrees upon them, and part of what I don't like about religions like Christianity and Mormonism, is that they assert that humans are incapable of doing that on their own. Those religions are saying, "The Human Race can't stop themselves from killing and stealing unless we force them to." That's called self degradation, and it's not a good thing. The laws that this society would agree on by itself would most likely be ones that are sensible such as, no rape, no murder unless in self defense, no stealing, no torturing animals. The society's people would come together to act against an offender, instead of having an overpowered force do so.
That's enough of me envisioning an idealistic society though! 
As for the commandments, most of them have got the right idea by banning murder and thievery. Like I said though, Humans are capable of being moral without Big Brother, whom they must love and fear at the same time. I think that without religion, some time along the line of human societal development people would have gotten together and said, "Hey everyone, let's not kill each other, and let's not take each other's shit. Okay?"
As for some of the other commandments, there are some iffy ones though, like saying that you cannot work on Sunday, or that you MUST worship God. I mean really?

5. By no means does everlasting nothingness seem appealing to me. I'm really not looking forwards to it, and sometimes find myself feeling very saddened or even a little bit nervous about the impending nothingness that awaits all living creatures. 
However, just because I find a concept uncomfortable, that's no reason to not believe in it. If you ignore all the things that make you uneasy, you're gonna have a bad time.

Regardless, I feel incredibly honored to have been lucky enough to be a human for the few years that I will have in this universe. It's just so fucking cool! Even if it only lasts for 70-80ish years, I'm a conscious human, and that's fucking awesome! 
The only comfort I have when regarding death is that when I'm dead, I wont even know it. I also find comfort in knowing that the atoms that used to make up my body will be recycled into the universe and used for other things. It's actually a pretty cool concept, I think. 

Good talkin'!  :3

[Arnox]

1. Ok! 

2. Usually I'm discussing these concepts with Christians, and I will tell that their belief holds the world back by teaching people to be satisfied with not knowing the truths about the world. With Mormonism though, which I'm not too familiar with, I cannot make that claim with the same degree of certainty that I have when using it against Christians. I'm curious to hear though, why you think it would propel us forwards?  ???

3. I'm suppose if it were certain that Mormonism was true, I would reject the idea of evolution. However, I don't see what that question is meant to prove, because there is quite a good deal of evidence supporting evolution as fact, and there is very little evidence supporting Mormonism as fact. Also, evolution just flat out makes sense and is observable.
-I'm afraid my not seeing the point of this question may be due to improper interpretation of the question. Was the answer I provided adequate?

4. I don't like it because it justifies everything. I don't believe that it justifies everything, but more along the lines of makes it so that there are no consequences. I like this because it puts people in charge of their own lives, and it puts the human race in charge of its own fate. Nobody forces a universal law or owns any person. They are human beings who own themselves.
Also, to answer your question, I actually do consider myself to be a bit of an anarchist. Anarchy has several different definitions however. The one I am talking about is when referring to a society without a publicly enforced government. I think that nearly every government results in becoming a corrupt tyrannical power house that treat its people like cattle. However, like you said, lawlessness does cause a bit of a problem. But there is a solution. There can be laws without a government if a society agrees upon them, and part of what I don't like about religions like Christianity and Mormonism, is that they assert that humans are incapable of doing that on their own. Those religions are saying, "The Human Race can't stop themselves from killing and stealing unless we force them to." That's called self degradation, and it's not a good thing. The laws that this society would agree on by itself would most likely be ones that are sensible such as, no rape, no murder unless in self defense, no stealing, no torturing animals. The society's people would come together to act against an offender, instead of having an overpowered force do so.
That's enough of me envisioning an idealistic society though! 
As for the commandments, most of them have got the right idea by banning murder and thievery. Like I said though, Humans are capable of being moral without Big Brother, whom they must love and fear at the same time. I think that without religion, some time along the line of human societal development people would have gotten together and said, "Hey everyone, let's not kill each other, and let's not take each other's shit. Okay?"
As for some of the other commandments, there are some iffy ones though, like saying that you cannot work on Sunday, or that you MUST worship God. I mean really?

5. By no means does everlasting nothingness seem appealing to me. I'm really not looking forwards to it, and sometimes find myself feeling very saddened or even a little bit nervous about the impending nothingness that awaits all living creatures. 
However, just because I find a concept uncomfortable, that's no reason to not believe in it. If you ignore all the things that make you uneasy, you're gonna have a bad time.

Regardless, I feel incredibly honored to have been lucky enough to be a human for the few years that I will have in this universe. It's just so fucking cool! Even if it only lasts for 70-80ish years, I'm a conscious human, and that's fucking awesome! 
The only comfort I have when regarding death is that when I'm dead, I wont even know it. I also find comfort in knowing that the atoms that used to make up my body will be recycled into the universe and used for other things. It's actually a pretty cool concept, I think. 

Good talkin'!  :3

2. Because Mormonism teaches one to think logically (believe it or not). Also, and this is my opinion, I believe that since Mormonism is based on fundamental truths, we can use it as more established truth to build off of.

3. Eh, there's no real point to this other than you seeing my point of view a little bit.

4. Actually it does justify all actions since nothing matters. There are no morals because it will all amount to the same thing in the end. Death, which is the end of all.

But besides that, you know what? I know exactly what you mean. You want to do what you want to do. You are master of your own life. Period. I can understand that. I can sympathize. Who cares what some stupid ancient book says you should do? Why should you owe allegiance to some mysterious deity who doesn't even have the decency to show himself? Screw that, you've got better things to do. You have your life to live and you're going to live it to its fullest.

You believe that others should also come to this belief. You reason that if they realized what they were missing, if they just realized that they aren't really beholden to anyone or anything at all, they could be free too, just as you are.

I understand.

And it's tempting to believe. Incredibly so in fact. And it even makes a good amount of sense at first glance which just broadens its appeal. But man, I'm sorry but I know better. (6.)  And even further, I've seen the effects of disobeying the commandments and I know its effects intimately. It's great at first, when you're sinning, but sooner or later, the consequences WILL begin to rear their ugly head. Over and over and over again. I've seen it. And, SJ, my friend, did I ever tell you the definition of insanity?

5. No, you shouldn't ignore truth at all, no matter what it is. You're right. I was just trying to prove in this point how horrible nonexistence would be as a fate. And it's good that you love life. It's great. Mormonism is about having MORE of that. Not less. If you can believe it. And yes, it makes sense. I'm not defending it here simply because it sounds nice. It all makes perfect sense to me.

Sorry it took so long to reply.

[Infinityshock]

If you're so sure of the existence of some magical mystical invisible friend,  post on single verifiable shred of evidence

[Arnox]

If you're so sure of the existence of some magical mystical invisible friend,  post on single verifiable shred of evidence

I already did.

[Infinityshock]

Not on this forum u didn't

[Shark Jumper]

2. Because Mormonism teaches one to think logically (believe it or not). Also, and this is my opinion, I believe that since Mormonism is based on fundamental truths, we can use it as more established truth to build off of.

3. Eh, there's no real point to this other than you seeing my point of view a little bit.

4. Actually it does justify all actions since nothing matters. There are no morals because it will all amount to the same thing in the end. Death, which is the end of all.

But besides that, you know what? I know exactly what you mean. You want to do what you want to do. You are master of your own life. Period. I can understand that. I can sympathize. Who cares what some stupid ancient book says you should do? Why should you owe allegiance to some mysterious deity who doesn't even have the decency to show himself? Screw that, you've got better things to do. You have your life to live and you're going to live it to its fullest.

You believe that others should also come to this belief. You reason that if they realized what they were missing, if they just realized that they aren't really beholden to anyone or anything at all, they could be free too, just as you are.

I understand.

And it's tempting to believe. Incredibly so in fact. And it even makes a good amount of sense at first glance which just broadens its appeal. But man, I'm sorry but I know better. (6.)  And even further, I've seen the effects of disobeying the commandments and I know its effects intimately. It's great at first, when you're sinning, but sooner or later, the consequences WILL begin to rear their ugly head. Over and over and over again. I've seen it. And, SJ, my friend, did I ever tell you the definition of insanity?

5. No, you shouldn't ignore truth at all, no matter what it is. You're right. I was just trying to prove in this point how horrible nonexistence would be as a fate. And it's good that you love life. It's great. Mormonism is about having MORE of that. Not less. If you can believe it. And yes, it makes sense. I'm not defending it here simply because it sounds nice. It all makes perfect sense to me.

Sorry it took so long to reply.

2. Can I hear some examples of how Mormonism teaches people to think logically? I'm curious.

3. Get it. Got it. Good.

4. I wasn't saying it doesn't justify everything, I was just saying that wasn't the reason I like it. I like it because, as I said, the only morals that exist are those we create for ourselves, which the human race is fully capable of rationally doing. A good basic guideline is to ask yourself, "Would I like it very much if that guy did X to me? Yikes, I don't think so. We probably shouldn't to X to each other."

As for what I believe about life, you've got it spot on. I am not a slave. I am not a instrument to His will. I'm a human being, damn it. My life has value. While I do believe that everyone else should also see the value and complete badassy awesomeness of their own ironic existence, I fully enforce the right to believe whatever you want, so long as you do not use that belief to hurt or negatively influence others. 

As for disobeying the commandments. I'm not really worried about that, as I don't believe in an afterlife. I've been living great (sinning?) for the past 5 years of my life, totally disobeying religious rules, and I've never been happier in my entire life. When exactly are these negative consequences supposed to begin?  :  (No offense to you at all, I just find the idea a bit silly.) 

And yes, I do know the definition of insanity. (I like Vaas. Vaas is cool.  ) Doing the same thing over and over again hoping for a change that will not come. Kind of like how people pray, hoping for it to make a difference. If God has a master plan, and his will is going to be done no matter what, then praying means nothing. Does it not? (I realize this may be one of my arguments that only works on Christians)

Shark Jumper used Prayer Fallacy! It's not very effective.
Arnox used Mormon Kindness! It's super effective!     

5. Yeeah. Nonexistence really sucks.  Kinda scared of that.    
But I must push onward into the unknown, like every great human being before me! 

But, I simply find no reason to believe in something that is yet to present me with any viable evidence other than saying to simply believe harder. 



Good talkin'

[inflnityshock]

im still waiting for anyone to produce any evidence that any sort of deity exists.  that BS posted by the HNIC claiming his evidence was valid...isnt valid

[Arnox]

2. Can I hear some examples of how Mormonism teaches people to think logically? I'm curious.

3. Get it. Got it. Good.

4. I wasn't saying it doesn't justify everything, I was just saying that wasn't the reason I like it. I like it because, as I said, the only morals that exist are those we create for ourselves, which the human race is fully capable of rationally doing. A good basic guideline is to ask yourself, "Would I like it very much if that guy did X to me? Yikes, I don't think so. We probably shouldn't to X to each other."

As for what I believe about life, you've got it spot on. I am not a slave. I am not a instrument to His will. I'm a human being, damn it. My life has value. While I do believe that everyone else should also see the value and complete badassy awesomeness of their own ironic existence, I fully enforce the right to believe whatever you want, so long as you do not use that belief to hurt or negatively influence others. 

As for disobeying the commandments. I'm not really worried about that, as I don't believe in an afterlife. I've been living great (sinning?) for the past 5 years of my life, totally disobeying religious rules, and I've never been happier in my entire life. When exactly are these negative consequences supposed to begin?  :  (No offense to you at all, I just find the idea a bit silly.) 

And yes, I do know the definition of insanity. (I like Vaas. Vaas is cool.  ) Doing the same thing over and over again hoping for a change that will not come. Kind of like how people pray, hoping for it to make a difference. If God has a master plan, and his will is going to be done no matter what, then praying means nothing. Does it not? (I realize this may be one of my arguments that only works on Christians)

Shark Jumper used Prayer Fallacy! It's not very effective.
Arnox used Mormon Kindness! It's super effective!     

5. Yeeah. Nonexistence really sucks.  Kinda scared of that.    
But I must push onward into the unknown, like every great human being before me! 

But, I simply find no reason to believe in something that is yet to present me with any viable evidence other than saying to simply believe harder. 

Good talkin'

2. Well, for one, all of our base beliefs can be explained very logically. It is generally expected of us that we should know the WHY, not just the what. We are also commanded to seek after all truth, regardless of its form, through study. We are taught to be calm and rational. To consider as many viewpoints as possible before coming to a conclusion. And finally, we augment all of this through prayer, personal revelation, and keeping up with our physical well-being.

4. But why should you care about morals at all when they're meaningless? Who cares what that other person would think if you did something? You're not that person. He needs to fend for himself. Just as you fend for yourself.

If you don't mind, why don't you tell me how you've 'sinned' exactly. I could lay out the likely consequences for you.

As to prayer, we don't hope for it to make a difference. We pray and then we simply leave it all in Gods hands as to what he thinks is best. This is an essential part of becoming truly happy. To give your will to him. To accept whatever is given you, for good and for ill instead of assuming that you know what's best for you.

His overall will will be done, yes. But he sent us here to make choices. Choosing to pray to him for help is part of those choices. You choose whether or not you want his help or not.

5. Once again, read the BoM and pray. Then you can know.

Once again, sorry for the late, late reply. Hope you're still around.

[Shark Jumper]

2. Well, for one, all of our base beliefs can be explained very logically. It is generally expected of us that we should know the WHY, not just the what. We are also commanded to seek after all truth, regardless of its form, through study. We are taught to be calm and rational. To consider as many viewpoints as possible before coming to a conclusion. And finally, we augment all of this through prayer, personal revelation, and keeping up with our physical well-being.

4. But why should you care about morals at all when they're meaningless? Who cares what that other person would think if you did something? You're not that person. He needs to fend for himself. Just as you fend for yourself.

If you don't mind, why don't you tell me how you've 'sinned' exactly. I could lay out the likely consequences for you.

As to prayer, we don't hope for it to make a difference. We pray and then we simply leave it all in Gods hands as to what he thinks is best. This is an essential part of becoming truly happy. To give your will to him. To accept whatever is given you, for good and for ill instead of assuming that you know what's best for you.

His overall will will be done, yes. But he sent us here to make choices. Choosing to pray to him for help is part of those choices. You choose whether or not you want his help or not.

5. Once again, read the BoM and pray. Then you can know.

Once again, sorry for the late, late reply. Hope you're still around.

Yay, these are finally getting shorter!
I was gone for a bit getting ready to learn how to fly planes, but I'm back now! 

2. You say you seek the truth through study, but all you've told me to do since I've asked you what your basis or reason is, is to read the BoM and pray really hard. Then, I'm supposed to wait until I have "a feeling of happiness", and that's my signal that God is real and Mormonism is the one true religion out of millions that have come before it? I'm sorry, I'm just having so much trouble wrapping my head around how that can be considered logical. You keep on saying that they can be explained logically, so please. Please, I ask you, just take five minutes to type it out and explain it to me. Don't just keep telling me that it can be explained. Actually do it. Make me see your reasoning.

4. Why should I care about morals when they're meaningless, you ask? Well, just because a God didn't give a moral meaning, doesn't mean it is meaningless. People can and do bestow meaning upon morals, and have been doing it for as long as morals have existed. For example, violence brings pain and sadness to people. Since not very many people like pain and sadness, it can be agreed that a good common moral is to avoid violence when interacting with your fellow humans. Another example could be kindness. People often like when people are kind to them. In response, the favor is often returned. This moral of kindness has been given meaning by people because it makes us happy. What it really comes down to is brain science, and how certain actions make people react positively or negatively.

How I've sinned? Well, there's pride. Apparently, it's one of the worst of the sins, but I don't see anything wrong with reveling in your own awesomeness when you achieve something great. There's also envy. I'd be lying if I said that I haven't wished I had some things that other people have. There's the first commandment being broken, by me not even believing in God. I guess I take the lord's name in vain every time I say "God fuckin' damnit." I usually don't though, because I prefer other exclamations. I work on Sundays. I covet lots of stuff. Like I said though, you're just wasting your time if you lay out all the consequences. I don't believe in any of them.

On to prayer. So, you're saying that not only does every single Mormon hope to change nothing by praying, but you all pray knowing that He wont even listen?  You go on to say that you choose whether or not you want his help, even though your wanting it makes no difference as to whether or not it will be given? My goodness, this whole thing is just ripe with logical fallacies. I'm sorry to say this, but the whole concept of prayer just seems so poorly thought out by the guy who invented it.

5. No. No I can't know by just reading a book and hoping for something to be true.

[Sirfearoth]

If you're so sure of the existence of some magical mystical invisible friend,  post on single verifiable shred of evidence

The double slit experiment would be the best thing I could think of that could hint at the existence of a "God" or some type "magical mystical invisible friend." It was an experiment originally used to see if photons "light" was a particle or wave. In the 60s and 70s some physicists tried the same thing with electrons. They fired electrons at a plate that had 2 slits in it and on the other side was sensor to see where they hit. Now if electrons were particles you would have 2 lines on the sensor. What they found was that they had multiple lines on the sensor which indicated that electrons were acting like waves and not particles. Meaning the electrons are going through both slits at the same time. They then fired the electrons 1 at a time and still they had the wave like pattern on the sensor. So they put a sensor between the plate and the target/sensor to see which slit they were going through. What they saw when they started firing electrons again , 1 at a time, was a 2 slit pattern. Meaning they were going through 1 slit, and not both. Then they unplugged the sensor and tried it again they got the multiple slit pattern again. Meaning the electrons knew when they were being watched. Which would indicate that the electrons themselves are conscious or are being directed by some conscious force/being.

If you don't know or understand anything about quantum mechanics just watch a youtube video. If you still can't understand turn off you fucking TV, facebook, G+, or any other type of mass electronic media (mind control) and start reading some fucking books. 



“I don't know what God is, but I know what God isn't!"

[Arnox]

Darn it! I forgot about this thread but I wonder now if Shark Jumper is even here anymore.

The double slit experiment would be the best thing I could think of that could hint at the existence of a "God" or some type "magical mystical invisible friend." It was an experiment originally used to see if photons "light" was a particle or wave. In the 60s and 70s some physicists tried the same thing with electrons. They fired electrons at a plate that had 2 slits in it and on the other side was sensor to see where they hit. Now if electrons were particles you would have 2 lines on the sensor. What they found was that they had multiple lines on the sensor which indicated that electrons were acting like waves and not particles. Meaning the electrons are going through both slits at the same time. They then fired the electrons 1 at a time and still they had the wave like pattern on the sensor. So they put a sensor between the plate and the target/sensor to see which slit they were going through. What they saw when they started firing electrons again , 1 at a time, was a 2 slit pattern. Meaning they were going through 1 slit, and not both. Then they unplugged the sensor and tried it again they got the multiple slit pattern again. Meaning the electrons knew when they were being watched. Which would indicate that the electrons themselves are conscious or are being directed by some conscious force/being.

If you don't know or understand anything about quantum mechanics just watch a youtube video. If you still can't understand turn off you fucking TV, facebook, G+, or any other type of mass electronic media (mind control) and start reading some fucking books. 



“I don't know what God is, but I know what God isn't!"

If you look closely, you start to find that everything is just a little too convenient and well built. Some of the top scientists have verified this view.

[Shark Jumper]

Yeah, I'm still here. I've just been busy getting prepared for college.

[unbreakable matter]

holy shit, the admin is literally a morman

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfwInLOY6sA

there are also neckbearded atheists here

buddhist master race reporting in

[splooge gook]

my parents are both atheists, so naturally, i am one as well

[unbreakable matter]

my parents are both atheists, so naturally, i am one as well

have you ever been inside a church?