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Offline Hex535

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #30 on: May 31, 2014, 01:04:58 pm »
I don't mean to sound Immoral, but I do think there are waaay to many people on this planet. A little bit of eugenics here and there isnt a bad thing.
Then this ebony bird beguiling my sad fancy into smiling,
By the grave and stern decorum of the countenance it wore.
Though thy crest be shorn and shaven, thou," I said, "art sure no craven,
Ghastly grim and ancient raven wandering from the Nightly shore —
Tell me what thy lordly name is on the Night's Plutonian shore!"
Quoth the Raven, "Nevermore."

Offline Infinityshock

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #31 on: May 31, 2014, 01:23:50 pm »
I think eugenics is wrong because it's not up to other people to tell if someone should be able to have kids or not. I fully agree it could improve certain aspects of the human race, but still. You shouldn't tell other people what they can and cannot do.

No government or ruling body follows any part of that

I'm afraid I don't follow...
How does no ruling body taking part make it okay for somebody to tell someone else what they can and cannot do with their body?

U didn't think that reply out vry thoroughly

Abortion laws
Drug laws
Medical laws
'Mental health' laws
Fag love laws
Prostitution laws
Euthanasia laws
I could go on and on for pages. The fact is, anyone that thinks they have the right to the sanctity of their own body is fooling themselves

Offline Infinityshock

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #32 on: May 31, 2014, 01:25:48 pm »
I don't mean to sound Immoral, but I do think there are waaay to many people on this planet. A little bit of eugenics here and there isnt a bad thing.

Eugenics is more about quality over quantity.  Reduction of the global population is a different issue

Offline Shark Jumper

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #33 on: May 31, 2014, 02:35:08 pm »
I'm afraid I don't follow...
How does no ruling body taking part make it okay for somebody to tell someone else what they can and cannot do with their body?

U didn't think that reply out vry thoroughly

Abortion laws
Drug laws
Medical laws
'Mental health' laws
Fag love laws
Prostitution laws
Euthanasia laws
I could go on and on for pages. The fact is, anyone that thinks they have the right to the sanctity of their own body is fooling themselves

I understand now. I was really tired when I read this last night. That's probably why my response was nonsensical.

Real response:
I fully realize the government does all those things, but I don't think that makes them okay.
Respect existence or expect resistance.

Offline Infinityshock

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #34 on: May 31, 2014, 02:58:15 pm »
Of course not but they still do it and people let them

Offline Shark Jumper

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #35 on: May 31, 2014, 03:02:54 pm »
Of course not but they still do it and people let them
Yeah. :(
Respect existence or expect resistance.

Offline Arnox

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #36 on: June 01, 2014, 01:44:45 am »
Nice reply! I learned a lot about Mormonism, which I had not looked into very much before now.
I am going to reply with numbered points, addressing each of your points of the corresponding number. However, I'll be condensing some points that were of similar topic.
Before I begin, I must ask, would you agree, that the mainstream concept of the Christian heaven is horrific? Becoming a lobotomized servant along with other piece of shit humans for the rest of eternity?

1. This point will be addressed in my response to point number 7, which mainly comes down to providing substantial evidence.

2. I don't see any reason why a brain and a hypothetical soul could not work together. But still, there is yet to be any substantial evidence proving that a "soul" is even real. And don't even get me started on the Duncan MacDougall experiment, because that one has been debunked as water vapor evaporating off the human body.
You also talked about a veil of some sorts? If it makes people forget everything? How would they even know it was there, let alone all of these realms and prisons you speak of?
Also, I'm not saying that people suddenly appear and disappear from existence. I was just talking about how living organisms are formed from the moment of conception and how they die and decompose. This applies to all animals, not just humans. I'm not an expert on evolution or DNA, so I wont go on too much more about that kind of stuff!  :P
Also, why is it so nonsensical to imagine the cessation of sensation. I never meant that you just cease to exist. I meant that your brain starts shutting down as you die, and eventually stops working. When your brain doesn't work anymore, and has decomposed and been eaten by worms and bacteria, nitrogen fixation and the like, you wont be able to experience anything. Proof of this is seen in stroke victims. If a certain part of the stroke victims brain has been damaged. They will be unable to perform tasks that require that part of the brain. ie. Lifting your left arm. Another example is if a person sustains damage to their occipital cortex, rendering them blind for the remainder of their life. If damage to the brain can render a sense obsolete, think of what a dead/decomposing brain would do. Yet another example of how the brain is responsible for everything you experience is the cerebellum. This part of the brain forms memories. Scientists have actually been able to see the brain form molecules into memories. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/01/140123141711.htm

So, humanity is a conglomerate of eternal primal intelligence cores lasting from eternity to eternity? How would you explain the fact that the world's population is rising exponentially? You said it was nonsensical for Mormons to believe in new beings just appearing, but I don't see any other way your religion would explain the global population increase.

3. Not much I can really say here other than that the Mormon idea of Heaven is considerably less horrific than the primary Christian belief. Regardless, I'd just refer you back to everything I said in point 2.

4. "We're all literal sons and daughters of God. It is our goal to grow and progress continually until we are gods ourselves." - Arnox

"It is this primal intelligence that is made into our spirits. Each one of us has existed an eternity before the world was made, and will continue to exist for an equally infinite amount of time." - Arnox

You lost me here. Do we exist for all eternity as primal intelligence, or do we progress unto being gods? Also, if there are multiple gods, then what is the point of any one god being all powerful? This whole point you made here didn't make much sense to me, and clarification would be appreciated.

5. Who determines what is "Perfect"? Also, what happens when somebody's idea of progression doesn't match up with this master idea of perfect? There are tons of scientists who find joy out of studying evolution and progressing our scientific knowledge. They've made it their life's work. What happens to them? They go to spirit prison, or lose what gave their life meaning? What the actual fuck.  :'(

6. Ahh yes. On to proof. Unfortunately, personal proof just doesn't cut it. Personal proof is the same exact thing as convincing yourself that something is true. Also, when a claim as extraordinary as the existence of a god who has specific rules is made, extraordinary evidence is required. Think of it like this:

-John Smith gets a hole in one on the golf course. If he tells somebody, they might not believe him. However, since this isn't necessarily an extraordinary claim, it might just take a few friends who were there to confirm the story.
-Sally Jenkins has dinner with the President of the United States. If she goes and tells people this, she most likely will not be believed, as this is quite a claim to make. It would probably require evidence along the lines of official documentation and paperwork to convince people.
-Arnox claims that God and his angles handed down the knowledge that we are primal intelligence beings who are reincarnated for all eternity with mind wiping veils to prevent us from going insane. A claim like this should require an EXTRAORDINARY amount of proof to convince most people that it is true. It's going to take a lot more than eyewitness claims from 150 years ago, or personal affirmation experiences.

7. "Well, does science have all the answers now? No. Not in the slightest."-Arnox
No. Science does not have all the answers. But the prime difference between religion and science is that we are finding more and more answers every day. Don't you see? Every step science takes forwards, religion takes one step back. This is because science is not a belief, it is a process. A process based on proof, evidence, and repeatable testing. And quite frankly, it works. Watch this video to see what I'm talking about. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uephBmkupvQ

"But the thing is, if it wasn't religion, it would have been something else, you can be sure of that. Religion isn't the source of humanities crimes. Humans are. Simple as that. Religion's been used for a lot of good things as well. Just as science has."-Arnox

I've got to agree with you about humanity being the source of crimes.
As for the "atrocities" committed in the name of science. The truth is that many of those were not committed in the "name of science," they were committed because somebody wanted something. Take eugenics for example. People wanted to form a more fit society by sterilizing those who they saw as unfit to reproduce. So they used the top of the line experiment and scientific knowledge they had. That doesn't mean that science is evil, or that they did it in the name of science. It's just what happens when people use science for a wrongdoing, which can happen.
On the flip-side, though, science has led to many great things like antibiotics, penicillin, automobiles, radios, planes, clean energy, effective medication, surgery, physics, astrophysics, space travel, fertilizer, etc.
What has religion done to help? I've got to agree, mass community service projects are really fuckin' awesome. But beyond that, what is there? Faith healing? Praying your way to the moon? Praying for your polio diagnosed child to be able to walk?

"And as for science 'pushing God into the gaps', actually, a lot of scientists become MORE religious, the more they study the world around them. It's mainly because they're starting to realize that this world is a little TOO orderly. Too soundly built. Too beautiful to be just a big coincidence."-Arnox
Oh really? Wikipedia seems to think otherwise!  :P
"Among the members of the National Academy of Sciences, 7% believed in God, 72.2% did not, and 20.8% were agnostic or had doubts."-Wikipedia

I will leave you with one of my favorite videos. I really suggest watching in full screen and HD, because I hope this video will inspire you to see the natural beauty in life, and not the man made beauty that religion has made people believe. When you accept the universe/life as being probably a giant fucking fluke, it becomes so much more wonderful and amazing.
You're a very enjoyable person to discuss these matters with.  :)
Thank you, and I look forward to your response.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9D05ej8u-gU
Well, of course I think it's horrific, but I think it's downright untrue as well so it's irrelevant to me.

1. See point 7 then.

2. Of course there's no actual proof. Because if there was proof of a soul, that would be proof of God. And God doesn't want that. He wants faith. More on this later.

We know about the veil because we were told about it. Just as we were told about how the world began in Genesis and how Jesus went around, preaching the gospel in the New Testament. And the veil doesn't make you forget EVERYTHING, just everything that happened before you were born.

Yes, of course, beings are born and they die. Their bodies do decompose. I don't know exactly what you're claiming here or if you're asking something.

One thing you need to remember is that the body is a TOOL used by the soul. The soul is bound to it as long as the body is living. Like a computer. If the monitor goes out, does that mean the whole computer is broken? No. Just the monitor. When parts of the brain die, that means the soul can no longer make use of those parts. So, it effectively gets a "No Signal" from those parts of the brain. When the body ceases to live altogether, the body relinquishes its hold on the soul and the soul moves on to the Spirit World.

I should also add that the soul is indeed made of matter but a matter that's so refined and pure that it's impossible to see with our eyes or our tools.

Primal intelligences vary greatly in their potential. Not all of them are human. We don't know too much about them but we do know that they are infinite in number. So it wouldn't be a problem at all to fill this entire earth. So a primal intelligence is made into a soul which is usually assigned a time and place to be on an earth of some sort with a body. That is the basic process of how beings are, for lack of a better word, made.

3. See point 2.

4. Sorry, I wasn't being clear here. We existed at first as primal intelligences then we became fully fledged souls, then we obtained bodies, and so on. Finally, we reach a stage where we become gods ourselves. How that will work exactly, I don't really know. This is way down the line though. Like WAAAYYYYYYYYYY DDOOOOOOOOWWWWWNNNN the line.

5. lol No, no, no, no. Becoming perfect does not mean you need to be EXACTLY THE SAME as God himself. But again, remember the definition of perfection: to be whole and undamaged. To basically be better than yourself. So much to the point where you can no longer improve. Until you're an utter master of everything that was, is, and shall be. Everyone has flaws. The only one that didn't was Jesus Christ. Studying evolution is not a flaw. It's just what they're doing and has no real correlation with what we're discussing right now. One thing you also need to know is that while God is just, he is also merciful. He loves us completely and wants the absolute best for us. He is our HEAVENLY FATHER after all. His work is "to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." (Immortality and eternal life are two very separate things BTW. The former means you can no longer be split from your body which can no longer be damaged in any way and the latter means a life of a god.) His work isn't to condemn as many of us filthy humans as he can.

6. You're right. It would require more proof than that. But I also think you're misunderstanding me when I say "personal proof". I'll just relate to you my personal story of how I found out the church was REALLY true. Perhaps you'll understand then.

I was rather young when I first prayed. Must have been about, oh, 11 or 12 years old, give or take. I was riding off of my parents testimony that the church was true for so long, but finally, it stopped being a good reason to believe in the church. I knew that MILLIONS of people had prayed and received a confirmation of true in their hearts and I thought that was enough for me, but as time went on, it really wasn't. And that's when I knew I needed to pray and learn for myself. So, that night, I kneeled down in my bedroom and pray to know if the church was true, if the scriptures were true, and if Joseph Smith really was a true prophet of God, and man, I got hit by a metaphorical train that night.

This feeling I all of a sudden felt, it was so insanely strong. It was a feeling of pure, blissful happiness. Of love. Of amazing clarity. And it came out of nowhere. And then I knew in my heart that yes, the church was true, the scriptures were true, and Joseph was indeed a prophet. I knew down to the depths of my own soul. And ever since, that feeling and that moment has stayed with me my entire life. And even now, not too long ago, I experienced this same feeling again. Perhaps even a little stronger. I won't say how that came about though as that's another long story I don't have time for here.

And that's what I mean when I say "personal proof". You can have this confirmation too if you wanted. You just need to read the Book of Mormon at least somewhat and then pray with full purpose of heart and real intent (again, those two are important) and ask if it's true.

7. Mormonism is a growing religion too. Actually, it's one of the things that separates us from a bunch of other christian churches. Other churches say they have the Bible and they don't need any more of God's word. We take a MUCH more different stance. Specifically, we believe in literal continued revelation from God, whether it comes to us through the promptings of the Holy Ghost or through our prophet. So yes, Mormonism is always expanding as well.

Another thing you seem to think is that religion and science cannot exist together for some reason. Let me bring up a great quote I read a while ago.

Quote from: Kendal B. Hunter
There really is no such thing as "science." There are just various theories in various states of verification. Likewise, there are various religions, with various strengths. When we ask if science conflicts with religion, which apples are we comparing? The question itself needs to be questioned.

Your science is effective critical thinking and collaboration. Which is just fine. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. However, what I have a problem with is when people take some new theory that scientists put out and tout it as proof against religion. Yeah, I don't like that very much at all. Let's assume for just a second that Mormonism is completely true. Don't you think the conclusions we come to when practicing science should align with established truth?

Which leads me to one the things in Mormonism that I just love completely. The more you study it, the more you notice how much SENSE it all makes. It's beautiful really how everything connects in a seamless way. Everything has a purpose. Everything has a suitable reason. I don't find this with other religions or beliefs at all. They always seem to have SOMETHING wrong with them in my eyes. And there is proof besides the type I talked about above. But those are for later when you have faith.

There is one thing I'd like to bring up though and that is this:
"When you accept the universe/life as being probably a giant fucking fluke, it becomes so much more wonderful and amazing."

I'm sorry but I REALLY don't understand this one bit. How would it be nice if the whole universe just happened because of random chance? That means everything we were, are, will be, and have done, is utterly POINTLESS. Everything would be pointless. How is ceasing to exist upon death a good thing in the slightest? It's not even a neutral thing. It's downright horrifying.

Anyway, I should add that a lot of the questions you're asking and subjects you're talking about are rather advanced stuff. Besides all that though, thanks. I'm glad you mean well and aren't just here to argue like a lot of people on the internet do. I appreciate that.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2014, 01:49:31 am by Arnox »


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Offline burroughs

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #37 on: June 01, 2014, 03:27:39 am »
In conclusion. I have no respect for religions, specifically Christianity. Let me explain why.
When someone tells me to respect a religion simply because it exists, or is widespread, I ask you the following.
       Why should I respect an ancient idea, that was spread across the ancient world through bloodshed, fear, and torture. When crusaders came to a new country or continent, they presented the inhabitants with two options. Submit to our religion, or die. They tortured, forced, and indoctrinated people into believing the same things that they did. There is absolutely no respect in that. So when you tell me to respect a religion simply because it is, think of the ancient conquest of bloodshed and horror that lead to that religion being so widespread, and you'll understand why I roll my eyes at you.

No idea should simply command your respect but that's a poorly thought out response to your hypothetical scenario. Think of all the terrible acts that have been committed in the name of Darwinism (Eugenics) and Marxism (which generally has a hard-on for atheism and is vehemently anti-religion).

I realize Arnox's question was specifically about Christianity but I hope you know that religion != God. You can find everything you mentioned to be perfectly silly but still believe in some other high power.

I also disagree on your burden of proof stance. Not believing in a high power is just as much a statement as is believing. The real question here is "Who or what created the universe?" and the answer you give basically equates to "I don't know, but not that."

Offline Shark Jumper

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #38 on: June 01, 2014, 09:19:46 pm »
In conclusion. I have no respect for religions, specifically Christianity. Let me explain why.
When someone tells me to respect a religion simply because it exists, or is widespread, I ask you the following.
       Why should I respect an ancient idea, that was spread across the ancient world through bloodshed, fear, and torture. When crusaders came to a new country or continent, they presented the inhabitants with two options. Submit to our religion, or die. They tortured, forced, and indoctrinated people into believing the same things that they did. There is absolutely no respect in that. So when you tell me to respect a religion simply because it is, think of the ancient conquest of bloodshed and horror that lead to that religion being so widespread, and you'll understand why I roll my eyes at you.

No idea should simply command your respect but that's a poorly thought out response to your hypothetical scenario. Think of all the terrible acts that have been committed in the name of Darwinism (Eugenics) and Marxism (which generally has a hard-on for atheism and is vehemently anti-religion).

I realize Arnox's question was specifically about Christianity but I hope you know that religion != God. You can find everything you mentioned to be perfectly silly but still believe in some other high power.

I also disagree on your burden of proof stance. Not believing in a high power is just as much a statement as is believing. The real question here is "Who or what created the universe?" and the answer you give basically equates to "I don't know, but not that."

I see the acts committed in the name of Darwinism to be just as bad. I'm not fighting in the name of science or Darwinism. I'm discussing concepts in the name of peace and reason. Whenever somebody thinks they can tell someone else what to do in the name of X, I hate it.  X=God   X=Darwinism  X=Safety
My main policy I have is that I think people should be able to do whatever they want as long as it doesn't directly and negatively influence another person. Also, just because Marxism employed anti theistic tactics in the name of evil, doesn't mean that atheists and anti theists are like that. It's the whole deal with all squares being rectangles but not all rectangles being squares.

Just as much of a statement? Actually, not believing in a high power is NOT as much a statement. That is a fact, and it's a fact because we all start off like that when we're born. You did, I did, everyone. It's the default. The only reason anybody believes anything is because they've been told it or indoctrinated into it from the day they were born.

As for the burden of proof stance, I didn't mean to say "I don't know, but not that." I'm saying that nobody really knows, and if you think you do, you had better back it up with some really damn good evidence. Otherwise, it's not worth believing.
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Offline Shark Jumper

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #39 on: June 01, 2014, 10:06:58 pm »
Well, of course I think it's horrific, but I think it's downright untrue as well so it's irrelevant to me.

1. See point 7 then.

2. Of course there's no actual proof. Because if there was proof of a soul, that would be proof of God. And God doesn't want that. He wants faith. More on this later.

We know about the veil because we were told about it. Just as we were told about how the world began in Genesis and how Jesus went around, preaching the gospel in the New Testament. And the veil doesn't make you forget EVERYTHING, just everything that happened before you were born.

Yes, of course, beings are born and they die. Their bodies do decompose. I don't know exactly what you're claiming here or if you're asking something.

One thing you need to remember is that the body is a TOOL used by the soul. The soul is bound to it as long as the body is living. Like a computer. If the monitor goes out, does that mean the whole computer is broken? No. Just the monitor. When parts of the brain die, that means the soul can no longer make use of those parts. So, it effectively gets a "No Signal" from those parts of the brain. When the body ceases to live altogether, the body relinquishes its hold on the soul and the soul moves on to the Spirit World.

I should also add that the soul is indeed made of matter but a matter that's so refined and pure that it's impossible to see with our eyes or our tools.

Primal intelligences vary greatly in their potential. Not all of them are human. We don't know too much about them but we do know that they are infinite in number. So it wouldn't be a problem at all to fill this entire earth. So a primal intelligence is made into a soul which is usually assigned a time and place to be on an earth of some sort with a body. That is the basic process of how beings are, for lack of a better word, made.

3. See point 2.

4. Sorry, I wasn't being clear here. We existed at first as primal intelligences then we became fully fledged souls, then we obtained bodies, and so on. Finally, we reach a stage where we become gods ourselves. How that will work exactly, I don't really know. This is way down the line though. Like WAAAYYYYYYYYYY DDOOOOOOOOWWWWWNNNN the line.

5. lol No, no, no, no. Becoming perfect does not mean you need to be EXACTLY THE SAME as God himself. But again, remember the definition of perfection: to be whole and undamaged. To basically be better than yourself. So much to the point where you can no longer improve. Until you're an utter master of everything that was, is, and shall be. Everyone has flaws. The only one that didn't was Jesus Christ. Studying evolution is not a flaw. It's just what they're doing and has no real correlation with what we're discussing right now. One thing you also need to know is that while God is just, he is also merciful. He loves us completely and wants the absolute best for us. He is our HEAVENLY FATHER after all. His work is "to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." (Immortality and eternal life are two very separate things BTW. The former means you can no longer be split from your body which can no longer be damaged in any way and the latter means a life of a god.) His work isn't to condemn as many of us filthy humans as he can.

6. You're right. It would require more proof than that. But I also think you're misunderstanding me when I say "personal proof". I'll just relate to you my personal story of how I found out the church was REALLY true. Perhaps you'll understand then.

I was rather young when I first prayed. Must have been about, oh, 11 or 12 years old, give or take. I was riding off of my parents testimony that the church was true for so long, but finally, it stopped being a good reason to believe in the church. I knew that MILLIONS of people had prayed and received a confirmation of true in their hearts and I thought that was enough for me, but as time went on, it really wasn't. And that's when I knew I needed to pray and learn for myself. So, that night, I kneeled down in my bedroom and pray to know if the church was true, if the scriptures were true, and if Joseph Smith really was a true prophet of God, and man, I got hit by a metaphorical train that night.

This feeling I all of a sudden felt, it was so insanely strong. It was a feeling of pure, blissful happiness. Of love. Of amazing clarity. And it came out of nowhere. And then I knew in my heart that yes, the church was true, the scriptures were true, and Joseph was indeed a prophet. I knew down to the depths of my own soul. And ever since, that feeling and that moment has stayed with me my entire life. And even now, not too long ago, I experienced this same feeling again. Perhaps even a little stronger. I won't say how that came about though as that's another long story I don't have time for here.

And that's what I mean when I say "personal proof". You can have this confirmation too if you wanted. You just need to read the Book of Mormon at least somewhat and then pray with full purpose of heart and real intent (again, those two are important) and ask if it's true.

7. Mormonism is a growing religion too. Actually, it's one of the things that separates us from a bunch of other christian churches. Other churches say they have the Bible and they don't need any more of God's word. We take a MUCH more different stance. Specifically, we believe in literal continued revelation from God, whether it comes to us through the promptings of the Holy Ghost or through our prophet. So yes, Mormonism is always expanding as well.

Another thing you seem to think is that religion and science cannot exist together for some reason. Let me bring up a great quote I read a while ago.

Quote from: Kendal B. Hunter
There really is no such thing as "science." There are just various theories in various states of verification. Likewise, there are various religions, with various strengths. When we ask if science conflicts with religion, which apples are we comparing? The question itself needs to be questioned.

Your science is effective critical thinking and collaboration. Which is just fine. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. However, what I have a problem with is when people take some new theory that scientists put out and tout it as proof against religion. Yeah, I don't like that very much at all. Let's assume for just a second that Mormonism is completely true. Don't you think the conclusions we come to when practicing science should align with established truth?

Which leads me to one the things in Mormonism that I just love completely. The more you study it, the more you notice how much SENSE it all makes. It's beautiful really how everything connects in a seamless way. Everything has a purpose. Everything has a suitable reason. I don't find this with other religions or beliefs at all. They always seem to have SOMETHING wrong with them in my eyes. And there is proof besides the type I talked about above. But those are for later when you have faith.

There is one thing I'd like to bring up though and that is this:
"When you accept the universe/life as being probably a giant fucking fluke, it becomes so much more wonderful and amazing."

I'm sorry but I REALLY don't understand this one bit. How would it be nice if the whole universe just happened because of random chance? That means everything we were, are, will be, and have done, is utterly POINTLESS. Everything would be pointless. How is ceasing to exist upon death a good thing in the slightest? It's not even a neutral thing. It's downright horrifying.

Anyway, I should add that a lot of the questions you're asking and subjects you're talking about are rather advanced stuff. Besides all that though, thanks. I'm glad you mean well and aren't just here to argue like a lot of people on the internet do. I appreciate that.

Hoo boy, let me be the one to start making these responses a bit shorter. XD
Unless you really want to continue talking about the things that are a complete matter of faith/opinion, such as the afterlife and what God would want, I'm pretty finished there. I let you know all my thoughts and opinions, and you did the same for me. I'm sure we both learned something, which is good!  ;D However, I think we've reached the point where we need to agree to disagree.

One tiny thing I wanted to mention was how you said that "you'll get more proof when you have more faith." That just put me off a little bit because the word faith, literally means believing in something without any evidence. Regardless, it's not that big a deal.  ;)

Another thing you said was that I seem to think that religion and science cannot exist together. I'll say, it does seem that way, but it's not. I know they can exist together because they do today. It's just that I think as long as religion exists, it will be holding our species back, and keeping us stuck in older times.

Let's assume for just a second that Mormonism is completely true. Don't you think the conclusions we come to when practicing science should align with established truth?
Could you please rephrase this? I didn't understand.  :-\


You said,
There is one thing I'd like to bring up though and that is this:
"When you accept the universe/life as being probably a giant fucking fluke, it becomes so much more wonderful and amazing."

I'm sorry but I REALLY don't understand this one bit. How would it be nice if the whole universe just happened because of random chance? That means everything we were, are, will be, and have done, is utterly POINTLESS. Everything would be pointless. How is ceasing to exist upon death a good thing in the slightest? It's not even a neutral thing. It's downright horrifying.


Oh, I think you do understand it. You just don't agree with it. There's nothing to misunderstand about what I said because all I did was state my opinion.
Allow me to try to explain why I think that, in a way that you might be able to get more out of.
I think that life becomes much more amazing and beautiful when you see it through the eyes of an atheist, as in being a fluke. I think this because in a universe without purpose or meaning, the Earth didn't have to be like this. It didn't have to be beautiful and amazing and able to support life, but it is. So yeah, I think it's really nice that the whole universe happened by chance, and everything is pointless. Pointless is fucking fantastic, because that means you create your own meaning in life. There's no all powerful being that can convict you of thought crime while you sleep. There's no set list of rules you need to live in fear of, facing everlasting torment or paradise after your life if you disobey. There's no real right or wrong. There's just life. This is your one and only life to live, so be magnificent! You didn't have to be alive, but you are, and nobody fucking knows why! ;D And I think that's beautiful, not horrific.

As for death, well, let me direct you to my friend Mark Twain.
Mr. Twain, would you?
“I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.”
― Mark Twain


My goodness Arnox, I really do love talking with you. It's such a great thing to have a sensible discussion. :D
Respect existence or expect resistance.

Offline burroughs

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #40 on: June 01, 2014, 10:27:11 pm »
Also, just because Marxism employed anti theistic tactics in the name of evil, doesn't mean that atheists and anti theists are like that. It's the whole deal with all squares being rectangles but not all rectangles being squares.

Just as much of a statement? Actually, not believing in a high power is NOT as much a statement. That is a fact, and it's a fact because we all start off like that when we're born. You did, I did, everyone. It's the default. The only reason anybody believes anything is because they've been told it or indoctrinated into it from the day they were born.

Your rant against Christianity becomes null and void, then.

I'd actually argue that people are born more naturally agnostic than atheist. Your arguments are all specifically rejecting some other idea, become someone else told you about some nice old white guy in the sky that you chose to not believe in. The default is a lack of knowledge in anything.

Offline Shark Jumper

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #41 on: June 01, 2014, 10:45:33 pm »
Also, just because Marxism employed anti theistic tactics in the name of evil, doesn't mean that atheists and anti theists are like that. It's the whole deal with all squares being rectangles but not all rectangles being squares.

Just as much of a statement? Actually, not believing in a high power is NOT as much a statement. That is a fact, and it's a fact because we all start off like that when we're born. You did, I did, everyone. It's the default. The only reason anybody believes anything is because they've been told it or indoctrinated into it from the day they were born.

Your rant against Christianity becomes null and void, then.

I'd actually argue that people are born more naturally agnostic than atheist. Your arguments are all specifically rejecting some other idea, become someone else told you about some nice old white guy in the sky that you chose to not believe in. The default is a lack of knowledge in anything.

No, my being against Christianity is not null and void. This is because there are specific parts of Christianity that employ fear based control and servitude to a mighty celestial dictator. Atheism has none of that, making it a negligible factor when determining the morality of a society that identifies as it.

Also I never said people were born atheist. I just said they're born not believing. So yeah, agnosticy atheistish whatever seems good! ;)
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Offline burroughs

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #42 on: June 01, 2014, 10:57:42 pm »
No, my being against Christianity is not null and void. This is because there are specific parts of Christianity that employ fear based control and servitude to a mighty celestial dictator. Atheism has none of that, making it a negligible factor when determining the morality of a society that identifies as it.

No, there are specific Christian denominations that think like that and promote those teachings...

Offline Shark Jumper

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #43 on: June 02, 2014, 12:54:52 am »
No, my being against Christianity is not null and void. This is because there are specific parts of Christianity that employ fear based control and servitude to a mighty celestial dictator. Atheism has none of that, making it a negligible factor when determining the morality of a society that identifies as it.

No, there are specific Christian denominations that think like that and promote those teachings...

Yeah. More of the literalists like the WBC.
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Offline Arnox

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Re: Atheism
« Reply #44 on: June 02, 2014, 09:34:19 pm »
Hoo boy, let me be the one to start making these responses a bit shorter. XD
Unless you really want to continue talking about the things that are a complete matter of faith/opinion, such as the afterlife and what God would want, I'm pretty finished there. I let you know all my thoughts and opinions, and you did the same for me. I'm sure we both learned something, which is good!  ;D However, I think we've reached the point where we need to agree to disagree.

One tiny thing I wanted to mention was how you said that "you'll get more proof when you have more faith." That just put me off a little bit because the word faith, literally means believing in something without any evidence. Regardless, it's not that big a deal.  ;)

Another thing you said was that I seem to think that religion and science cannot exist together. I'll say, it does seem that way, but it's not. I know they can exist together because they do today. It's just that I think as long as religion exists, it will be holding our species back, and keeping us stuck in older times.

Let's assume for just a second that Mormonism is completely true. Don't you think the conclusions we come to when practicing science should align with established truth?
Could you please rephrase this? I didn't understand.  :-\


You said,
There is one thing I'd like to bring up though and that is this:
"When you accept the universe/life as being probably a giant fucking fluke, it becomes so much more wonderful and amazing."

I'm sorry but I REALLY don't understand this one bit. How would it be nice if the whole universe just happened because of random chance? That means everything we were, are, will be, and have done, is utterly POINTLESS. Everything would be pointless. How is ceasing to exist upon death a good thing in the slightest? It's not even a neutral thing. It's downright horrifying.


Oh, I think you do understand it. You just don't agree with it. There's nothing to misunderstand about what I said because all I did was state my opinion.
Allow me to try to explain why I think that, in a way that you might be able to get more out of.
I think that life becomes much more amazing and beautiful when you see it through the eyes of an atheist, as in being a fluke. I think this because in a universe without purpose or meaning, the Earth didn't have to be like this. It didn't have to be beautiful and amazing and able to support life, but it is. So yeah, I think it's really nice that the whole universe happened by chance, and everything is pointless. Pointless is fucking fantastic, because that means you create your own meaning in life. There's no all powerful being that can convict you of thought crime while you sleep. There's no set list of rules you need to live in fear of, facing everlasting torment or paradise after your life if you disobey. There's no real right or wrong. There's just life. This is your one and only life to live, so be magnificent! You didn't have to be alive, but you are, and nobody fucking knows why! ;D And I think that's beautiful, not horrific.

As for death, well, let me direct you to my friend Mark Twain.
Mr. Twain, would you?
“I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.”
― Mark Twain


My goodness Arnox, I really do love talking with you. It's such a great thing to have a sensible discussion. :D

Sounds good.

1. Nah, you can have a little bit of evidence and still have faith. There must always be some room for doubt though. Otherwise, it's not faith anymore. It's knowledge.

2. Mormonism doesn't resist scientific progress in any way that I know of, discounting unethical experiments of course. I don't see how Mormonism would hold us back as a species in any way. Actually, on the contrary, I think it would propel us FORWARD.

3. Well, let's bring up human evolution. Assuming again that you know Mormonism is right for a second here, wouldn't you reject that idea?

4. Oh, I see now. You like it because it justifies everything. And it does. But let me ask you something. Are you an anarchist? I'm guessing no. So you believe in some laws. Why? Well, so we can maintain order and a better system and environment for as many people as we can, right?

This is the same principle here. The commandments are given to HELP us. Not to order us around. God is trying to give us the recipe for the most ideal perfect life you could possibly imagine. We just need to choose to follow it. But hey, if you don't believe they're the way to the most ideal life, that's fine. I'm just sayin' though. The laws are there to help and guide us. Not restrict. And personally, I'm actually glad I've followed the ones I have. Adhering to them has allowed me to avoid SO many problems and has led me into situations and to things I would not have obtained had I not adhered to those commandments.

Nevertheless, it's our choice. And that's the beauty of it. We CHOOSE our exact fate. And the coolest part? You'll be completely satisfied with the outcome. Why? Because the path you take is the one most suited to you. And the consequences that follow are the ones that are suited to you as well. It's the perfect system.

5. But you've already experienced life. You know now that life is infinitely better than nothing. Heck, I could even prove this by super simple math.

3 and 0. Which is more? 3 over 0. 3 is how many times more than 0? Infinite.

So, you've already experienced what "3" is like and it's more than "0" obviously. And now, you're telling me that you don't mind going back to 0? Forever? And please don't tell me something along the lines of, 'I'm not gonna care when I'm dead.' I'm talking about right now. Does pure everlasting nothingness really appeal to you as an ending fate?

And again, I enjoy talking to you too. ^^


Time is always against you in some way or another.

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