Society => Old School, New School, Fool School => Topic started by: Σ on August 08, 2014, 10:45:02 pm
Title: Why bother?
Post by: Σ on August 08, 2014, 10:45:02 pm
University was a place of enlightenment and learning. Now it is a place where people go to be programmed so they may preform their function as a cog in the machine. Does one really need a four year degree to become a receptionist? Does one really need two years to learn a trade that takes but a few months to gain proficiency?
The old way was better.
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: Arnox on August 09, 2014, 04:25:29 am
Like it or not, a lot of employers are screaming for them now so for the most part, you don't really have a choice.
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: Sirfearoth on August 17, 2014, 02:18:11 am
Yes I think what colleges/universities have turned into are nothing but institutions for thought control.
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: peskybear on August 17, 2014, 06:32:02 am
The system takes a long time to complete unless you're ready to drop a fat stack of cash. Going to a 2 year and then transferring can take wayyyy longer than it's supposed to because of not taking the right classes for transfer, not being able to get classes, life getting in the way, etc. but it tends to be a significantly cheaper route. If you go to a 4-year outright, you'll be in serious debt (most likely) but you'll probably be done sooner. Then you can get to not being able to find a job you're qualified for and having a difficult time keeping up with your loan payments even faster! :D
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: Tungsten.Chromium on August 26, 2014, 07:04:59 pm
Unless a specific job you want to get requires some sort of certification(which requires some formal schooling) than any advanced college is rarely useful IMO. Someone with a four years of industry experience will always be hired over someone with a four year degree.
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: RustyShackleford on September 03, 2014, 02:52:22 pm
Yes I think what colleges/universities have turned into are nothing but institutions for thought control.
It is sad how people don't realize this and think that they came to the conclusions on their own.
I also think that very soon, as in the current generation, will see that college degrees are not going to be worth more than scrap paper. Life is all about what skills you posess, yet university is moving in the exact opposite direction and claiming that instead it is better to become a balanced individual, which was addressed above. I'll be laughing my to the loan defaults.
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: Soso0 on September 04, 2014, 05:41:10 am
Ever since I dropped out of college last fall I've realized how important schooling is in order to get decent job. Now by schooling I don't mean a bachelors in philosophy but rather learning a trade or actual skills. I want to go back to school so bad but never to a four year ever again. Sure it was fun at times and did learn some life experience but it's way too expensive. I don't remember learning shit there either just took a bunch of bs classes.
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: Soso0 on September 04, 2014, 05:42:48 am
Yes I think what colleges/universities have turned into are nothing but institutions for thought control.
It is sad how people don't realize this and think that they came to the conclusions on their own.
I also think that very soon, as in the current generation, will see that college degrees are not going to be worth more than scrap paper. Life is all about what skills you posess, yet university is moving in the exact opposite direction and claiming that instead it is better to become a balanced individual, which was addressed above. I'll be laughing my to the loan defaults.
My thoughts exactly. No way I'm fucking paying back my loans. They can all go fuck themselves.
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: Σ on September 04, 2014, 06:30:47 am
Its interesting to hear that as I recently went in to a couple local places looking at things like apprenticeships and the like. Its not conventional schooling but if I take five years and become an apprentice to a journeyman learning a trade I know will net me at least $18 an hour (while getting paid for those years rather than paying for them) then why not? If you finish your apprenticeship and want to go to college you still have something to fall back on.
Also trade school isnt what it used to be. Community colleges in my area make people go for two years to get "certified" for skilled trades that should take 9 months on the job experience to master if you are diligent. Its sad to see that the idea of having an institution dedicated to learning has been turned into a money sucking think-inside-the-box institution.
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: Soso0 on September 04, 2014, 06:38:22 am
Its interesting to hear that as I recently went in to a couple local places looking at things like apprenticeships and the like. Its not conventional schooling but if I take five years and become an apprentice to a journeyman learning a trade I know will net me at least $18 an hour (while getting paid for those years rather than paying for them) then why not? If you finish your apprenticeship and want to go to college you still have something to fall back on.
Also trade school isnt what it used to be. Community colleges in my area make people go for two years to get "certified" for skilled trades that should take 9 months on the job experience to master if you are diligent. Its sad to see that the idea of having an institution dedicated to learning has been turned into a money sucking think-inside-the-box institution.
I haven't looked into trade schools lately but if that's the case then fuck everything. Friends I've spoken to have been feeling the same way about life as I have for a while. We work, work and spend countless hours working our asses of and it feels like we are getting NOWHERE. We end up in the same situation we were in the day before or worst.
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: Lanny on September 12, 2014, 09:49:39 pm
The system takes a long time to complete unless you're ready to drop a fat stack of cash. Going to a 2 year and then transferring can take wayyyy longer than it's supposed to because of not taking the right classes for transfer, not being able to get classes, life getting in the way, etc. but it tends to be a significantly cheaper route. If you go to a 4-year outright, you'll be in serious debt (most likely) but you'll probably be done sooner. Then you can get to not being able to find a job you're qualified for and having a difficult time keeping up with your loan payments even faster! :D
Is it really cheaper if you have to take an extra year to finish? You end up with 3 years of 4 year debt and 2 years of community college expenses plus one less year of your life. Maybe if we're talking about transfering from like whatever CC to Harvard or something but no one does that, generally people go from a community college to a state school where the tuition probably isn't that far beyond double of whatever CC you came from. I mean I guess if you might drop out it's better to drop out after a year at a 2 year place than somewhere else but if you're planning on getting a degree I'm not convinced the transfer scheme really works out that well in your favor.
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: unbreakable matter on September 12, 2014, 11:58:59 pm
I don't think I'll leave college with much debt and I really just want to learn shit and then get a piece of paper that says I might not be a degenerate so hire me and find out, I also have some ideas I want to test and I like young and naive girls
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: Infinityshock on September 13, 2014, 01:13:37 am
Not only is the curriculum bullshit but the costs and fees are beyond ridiculous. The only way they don't get RICO charges is because the rule-makers are alumni and get a cut of the take
The price for books is beyond disgusting. Now they dont even pretend to let the students own the books. They have a new option for just renting them
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: fanglekai on September 13, 2014, 03:02:38 am
The books for one class I took were $500...plus $60 for an access code to an online homework grading program that literally took a job away from a GTA who would otherwise have gotten paid to grade all the homework instead......needless to say.......torrents are free....
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: Infinityshock on September 13, 2014, 03:05:17 am
As bad as college is, government-mandated licenses are even worse. I need about 10 books for the study materials for a particular licensing exam and the total cost is about $1300.
Utter and complete bullshit
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: Sirfearoth on September 13, 2014, 03:39:39 am
The ruling elite do not want indepent educated free thinking people. That is the only true reason why getting a real education is becoming so fucking expensive.
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: fanglekai on September 13, 2014, 03:55:04 am
The ruling elite do not want indepent educated free thinking people. That is the only true reason why getting a real education is becoming so fucking expensive.
we're seeing the effects of privatization of once public resources. thanks republicans.
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: Infinityshock on September 13, 2014, 04:09:18 am
Its a continuance of the corpocracy running this country. Services that should be government-provided, especially those that should never be for-profit, are being under taken by private entities
It is a myth that a private for-profit entity is able to provide any service for a lower rate than a public provider
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: fanglekai on September 13, 2014, 04:11:53 am
Its a continuance of the corpocracy running this country. Services that should be government-provided, especially those that should never be for-profit, are being under taken by private entities
It is a myth that a private for-profit entity is able to provide any service for a lower rate than a public provider
it's a hilarious myth that they created to.....wait for it........generate more profits for themselves. healthcare, education, basic utilities like the internet... this shit shouldn't be for profit.
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: Lanny on September 13, 2014, 06:41:08 am
As bad as college is, government-mandated licenses are even worse. I need about 10 books for the study materials for a particular licensing exam and the total cost is about $1300.
Utter and complete bullshit
This is a good point. In fields that are trying to avoid state or defacto certification (like software engineering) having a degree/department at most accredited universities goes a long way in soothing popular opinion.
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: Ninja on September 13, 2014, 06:42:49 am
I'm an autodidact, and I love the user Autodidact for that name, so fuck the system!
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: RustyShackleford on September 13, 2014, 04:01:15 pm
The books for one class I took were $500...plus $60 for an access code to an online homework grading program that literally took a job away from a GTA who would otherwise have gotten paid to grade all the homework instead......needless to say.......torrents are free....
So often professors insist on getting the very newest edition of a book. Fortunately this year I only had to buy one book. And a professor wised us up to getting the international edition so I only spent $90 total rather than ~$500.
Also if the book is on reserve and I couldn't find a torrent I would photograph every single page before purchasing.
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: Σ on September 13, 2014, 04:10:53 pm
I dont see why students dont A. Torrent their college texts or B. Look at the index/table of contents of the specific text they are being told they must use in class and obtain a far cheaper set of books on those subjects. I mean really all a text book is is a book full of information to study. If you can break down a list of information found in one text book that costs $500 I am positive I could find a book or a list of books for $100 that contains information of the same quality.
Considering the simplicity of giving students a list of topics the course will study and requiring the student find texts pertaining to the topics on the list rather than saying they must purchase a $500 book that will be worth $90 the next year it is silly for colleges to require textbooks at all really.
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: Infinityshock on September 13, 2014, 04:14:21 pm
Its a continuance of the corpocracy running this country. Services that should be government-provided, especially those that should never be for-profit, are being under taken by private entities
It is a myth that a private for-profit entity is able to provide any service for a lower rate than a public provider
it's a hilarious myth that they created to.....wait for it........generate more profits for themselves. healthcare, education, basic utilities like the internet... this shit shouldn't be for profit.
prisons. garbage collection. the myth of recycling. government required licensing run by private corporations.
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: Infinityshock on September 13, 2014, 04:15:00 pm
I dont see why students dont A. Torrent their college texts or B. Look at the index/table of contents of the specific text they are being told they must use in class and obtain a far cheaper set of books on those subjects. I mean really all a text book is is a book full of information to study. If you can break down a list of information found in one text book that costs $500 I am positive I could find a book or a list of books for $100 that contains information of the same quality.
Considering the simplicity of giving students a list of topics the course will study and requiring the student find texts pertaining to the topics on the list rather than saying they must purchase a $500 book that will be worth $90 the next year it is silly for colleges to require textbooks at all really.
have you ever taken a college course?
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: Lanny on September 13, 2014, 05:44:42 pm
I dont see why students dont A. Torrent their college texts or B. Look at the index/table of contents of the specific text they are being told they must use in class and obtain a far cheaper set of books on those subjects. I mean really all a text book is is a book full of information to study. If you can break down a list of information found in one text book that costs $500 I am positive I could find a book or a list of books for $100 that contains information of the same quality.
Considering the simplicity of giving students a list of topics the course will study and requiring the student find texts pertaining to the topics on the list rather than saying they must purchase a $500 book that will be worth $90 the next year it is silly for colleges to require textbooks at all really.
I don't see why students bother with books in the first place, torrented or otherwise. Most your professors will cover 100% of the relevant material in class and if they don't then it's probably a lot of primary source stuff you can find between google and whatever academic database you have access to. In a three and a half year college career I've bought like maybe 5 books for classes
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: fanglekai on September 13, 2014, 06:10:45 pm
Publishers come out with a "new edition" that changes the homework problems around or rewrites them so that when the professor assigns chapter 3 problems 1, 6, 9, 30, 67, 83 if you have the wrong edition you can't do the homework. There are ways around buying the books, and so far I've been lucky with either finding torrents, international editions for texts I had to have, or other methods. I've bought a handful of books for my courses, but mostly I end up spending money on the online access codes that I cannot get around purchasing. It's a huge scam but whatever. Some degrees are worth the cost and effort. Most aren't.
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: stentor on September 13, 2014, 06:52:38 pm
With privatized corrections facilities there isn't much of a discourse as to why prisons are so over crowded. There is no rehabilitation when the incentive for convictions is mere profit, this doesn't benefit taxpayers like they try to convince us of and it certainly doesn't benefit ex cons who sometimes walk out of prison in debt. How fucked is that? This is something that we're going to see more and more of with the privatizations of what should be public institutions, a greed driven nation which will hopefully someday drive itself into the ground. It can't be sustained forever.
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: RisiR on September 13, 2014, 06:57:07 pm
Enjoy your Soylent Green, everybody.
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: Calzone on September 13, 2014, 07:29:03 pm
I don't see why students bother with books in the first place, torrented or otherwise. Most your professors will cover 100% of the relevant material in class and if they don't then it's probably a lot of primary source stuff you can find between google and whatever academic database you have access to. In a three and a half year college career I've bought like maybe 5 books for classes
At least for my school, not buying the books isn't an option. The professors purposely leave material out which forces you to purchase the book. But fuck that, I torrent every book I can.
All college is for our generation is a pyramid scheme which you get shat on if you don't fall for. Personally, I need the higher education since I'm a physics major (and I'm going all the way to doctorate) but the shit you hear for majors seriously doesn't sound like it requires any real education past high school. Nursing? Go to a two year med school. Rehabilitation? Why the fuck does this need school at all?
College these days is more expensive, less informative, and more necessary. Which is complete and utter bullshit. Getting your bachelor's is treated pretty much the same as a high school diploma. Fuck it, you might as well call the first four years 'second high school'
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: Lanny on September 13, 2014, 08:41:35 pm
I don't really know anything about nursing or rehabilitation so it's hard for me to say. I don't think it's fair to judge if a discipline needs higher education without knowing at least something about it. I could imagine for nursing you need a pretty good handle on human physiology right? I mean I remember just the crappy biology 101 class everyone has to take was miles more advanced than anything I had in high school.
I'm also not sold on the "less informative" claim. I mean in your field relativistic physics wasn't even a thing a century ago but now it's considered a staple of the undergraduate physics education. It seems like, if anything, the density of the material being taught at the undergraduate level is increasing.
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: RisiR on September 13, 2014, 08:51:56 pm
I've worked at a hospital before. Nursing is tough shit. Their level of knowledge is often on par with that of the doctors.
It's not just changing diapers.
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: Ninja on September 13, 2014, 09:47:09 pm
I'm not sure if any of you are aware, but going to college at this point is a waste of time, money and effort. There are no jobs available unless you're illegal.
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: RustyShackleford on September 14, 2014, 03:19:28 am
The good thing about a small school is I don't have to purchase the code for the online bullshit. One book I purchased online access for and could only access through this shitty web app. 1/100 the glory of pdf file. The application for doing the hw online always sucks and is barely functional. Even if like me you don't need the online stuff you still need the book for the hw questions and for class. In many classes it would negatively impact your grade not to have the book handy. Though when we go over the book its fun to see who pulls out paper and who pulls out a computer. Never had a prof call me out, might happen this semester since I'm in a mostly freshman class who are all chumps. Fuck most of the people in my IT classes are too stupid to search "filetype:pdf" or use a torrent program.
College these days is more expensive, less informative, and more necessary. Which is complete and utter bullshit. Getting your bachelor's is treated pretty much the same as a high school diploma. Fuck it, you might as well call the first four years 'second high school'
It isn't "second high school" its fucking baby sitting. Nursing? rehabilitation? Try womens and gender studies, marketing, business, advertising, communications, graphic design, sociology (plus all the sociology offshoots public health and shit), psychology, etc. These people are either going to become unemployed, underemployed, or at best 'empowered' wives. God fucking damnit. It pisses me off, but there aint no putting out a tire fire.
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: Σ on October 01, 2014, 04:49:12 pm
I've worked at a hospital before. Nursing is tough shit. Their level of knowledge is often on par with that of the doctors.
It's not just changing diapers.
I don't know what hospital you are talking about but as far as I have seen nurses don't do jack shit. I went to the ER twice in the past two weeks and had to wait 5 hours for stitches when the nurse told me she needed a doctor to do it. The second time I needed some blood tests because of potential pathogen exposure. All the nurse did was tell me what the doctor was doing and that he would get to me "soon". Neither nurse seemed capable of anything without the doc around.
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: RisiR on October 02, 2014, 12:21:34 pm
Well, German hospitals.... I guess you are American?
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: equanimity on October 02, 2014, 12:31:55 pm
I've worked at a hospital before. Nursing is tough shit. Their level of knowledge is often on par with that of the doctors.
It's not just changing diapers.
I don't know what hospital you are talking about but as far as I have seen nurses don't do jack shit. I went to the ER twice in the past two weeks and had to wait 5 hours for stitches when the nurse told me she needed a doctor to do it. The second time I needed some blood tests because of potential pathogen exposure. All the nurse did was tell me what the doctor was doing and that he would get to me "soon". Neither nurse seemed capable of anything without the doc around.
Each medical professional cannot is not allowed to work outside of their scope of practice without risking their certifications. The way jobs are delegated is sometimes confusing, but it's mandated by law and in many cases company policy. In a hospital especially you'll see jobs a nurse is legally able to perform (blood draws, for example) passed on to other people. Hospitals are all about efficiency, and nurses are hardcore busy as it is.
4 years of nursing school is nothing to scoff at. Don't think because they're not doing certain things or talking to you about your medical issues because they don't know what's going on or what to do in an emergency. What you're seeing is actually professionalism :P
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: Σ on October 02, 2014, 02:19:48 pm
I would argue the professionalism i see is getting in the way of efficiency. It would be easier, cheaper and quicker to simply stitch myself back together next time which is exactly what I intend to do. The problem is not that they cant do it because its not their area the problem is they don't have someone around to do minor procedures like stitches which in reality could take less than 30 mins if you are prepared to do it.
But this is getting off topic.
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: equanimity on October 02, 2014, 03:16:33 pm
I would argue the professionalism i see is getting in the way of efficiency. It would be easier, cheaper and quicker to simply stitch myself back together next time which is exactly what I intend to do. The problem is not that they cant do it because its not their area the problem is they don't have someone around to do minor procedures like stitches which in reality could take less than 30 mins if you are prepared to do it.
But this is getting off topic.
http://work.chron.com/rn-law-suturing-21023.html
"Each state sets its own laws on what registered nurses -- or RNs -- can and cannot do. These laws determine the scope of nursing practice within the state. Because suturing is considered a minor surgical procedure, it doesn't fall within the general scope of nursing duties unless your state specifically allows it. States more often allow advanced practice nurses to suture than RNs without an advanced practice degree."
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: MoaningLisa on October 04, 2014, 04:13:21 pm
I am going to a technical school for a 2 year degree in the petroleum industry.
I'm in my first semester, and I already have job offers and contacts.
make 100% absolutely sure before you go in that you are at the right school with the right major...if a job requires "a 4 year degree" and does not specify major, go find something that does specify your major.
go be a welder. that's a fast way to get $35/hr. shit, I was making $16.50/hr doing mobile mechanic work, no formal education, $500 in tools and my car. after a $200 class you can be a forklift operator and make $14.50 pretty much anywhere...class C drivers can make 51k/year, class A drivers can make WAY more.
my school offers health and dental courses, the nurses are doing great and so are the dental assistants. I don't know what its like to get a degree in that, probably pretty serious, but they have no problems with work or pay.
the plastics engineering kids are doing well
computer engineering is doing well
culinary arts are happy
automotive technology are happy with $16/hr
auto restoration is happy modifying '70 Chevelle's and '29 Bentley 8-liters all day...honestly, these kids are the real winners. I'd LOVE that job, even for pennies a day.
Title: Re: Why bother?
Post by: Lanny on October 04, 2014, 04:30:31 pm
Picking a career based on how much it pays sounds like a pretty good way to end up hating your job.