Society => Politics: Left, Right, and Center => Topic started by: Rizzo in a box on September 19, 2014, 09:25:32 am
Title: Democracy is the theory that people know what they want
Post by: Rizzo in a box on September 19, 2014, 09:25:32 am
Quote
Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard
-H.L. Mencken
Thoughts?
:troll:
Title: Re: Democracy is the theory that people know what they want
Post by: Infinityshock on September 19, 2014, 11:04:30 am
Thats the problem...the common people tend to be stupid and what they want tends to be just as stupid. Ergo...modern politics
Title: Re: Democracy is the theory that people know what they want
Post by: LiquidIce on September 22, 2014, 11:42:35 pm
David Brin, the author of The Postman (good post-apocalyptic book) writes about this cliche that everyone in society is stupid here: http://www.davidbrin.com/idiotplot.html
I sort of agree with him. People aren't stupid. Now ignorance.. that's another matter. Whenever I see people doing something I think is stupid, I try to analyze the situation from their point of view and I've come to the conclusion that the great majority of people are acting without enough information. They can't make good decisions without enough information. They have been taught to act this way, I believe, by the school system. People, if you explain things to them, will generally pick up on ideas rather quickly.
And so I have pretty much repeated OPs words using more words :suspect: . Fuck being tired.
Title: Re: Democracy is the theory that people know what they want
Post by: astudioapartment on September 22, 2014, 11:44:43 pm
democracy is how you trick people into believing they have a say in who runs their country. Makes it a little harder to cling to power but its based on the theory of absolute power corrupting absolutely too
Title: Re: Democracy is the theory that people know what they want
Post by: Lord hang man on September 23, 2014, 05:45:31 pm
Well USA is bna if that helps.
Title: Re: Democracy is the theory that people know what they want
Post by: Ninja on September 23, 2014, 06:09:21 pm
When you vote, you are only consenting to your own enslavement.
Title: Re: Democracy is the theory that people know what they want
Post by: FON on September 24, 2014, 11:42:37 am
Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard
-H.L. Mencken
Thoughts?
:troll:
You could say a representative democracy is about politicians knowing what the common people want, but either way they apparently deserve to get it good and hard.
Title: Re: Democracy is the theory that people know what they want
Post by: mojo4567 on September 24, 2014, 11:45:18 am
When you vote, you are only consenting to your own enslavement.
Yah but I like voting a hell lot more than being ruled under a monarch or something
Title: Re: Democracy is the theory that people know what they want
Post by: Lord hang man on September 24, 2014, 05:05:46 pm
History is a good place to look for the successes of democracy. Pretty much no nuke and no BNA war = good.
Title: Re: Democracy is the theory that people know what they want
Post by: Arnox on September 24, 2014, 05:08:26 pm
I think Winston Churchill said something to this effect.
"Democracy's bad, but everything else is even worse."
A sentiment I agree with mostly.
EDIT: Yep, Winston Churchill.
Quote
No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.
Title: Re: Democracy is the theory that people know what they want
Post by: Ninja on September 24, 2014, 05:14:18 pm
I think Winston Churchill said something to this effect.
"Democracy's bad, but everything else is even worse."
A sentiment I agree with mostly.
EDIT: Yep, Winston Churchill.
Quote
No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.
Well it sounds like its high time we try out some new types of government which will invariably the worst form of government except for all those before it. ;D
Title: Re: Democracy is the theory that people know what they want
Post by: Slave of the Beast on September 25, 2014, 09:48:14 am
Democracy in my contrary is riddled with career politicians spouting populist bullshit to the masses with whom they have no real connection. One of the major problems is the way the system is funded; by private donations. Democracy is a slave to party donors; the rich fund the Conservatives (the Bullingdon Club (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullingdon_Club)) and the Unions fund the champagne socialists Labour Party. Each group peddles the ideology supported by its financial backers rather than what is necessarily good for society as a whole.
Still, I'd rather the Bullingdon Club were in charge rather than the feckless Labour tits with their chronic 'tax n' spend 'till we're broke again' ethos.
Title: Re: Democracy is the theory that people know what they want
Post by: LiquidIce on September 25, 2014, 09:48:48 am
I think Winston Churchill said something to this effect.
"Democracy's bad, but everything else is even worse."
A sentiment I agree with mostly.
EDIT: Yep, Winston Churchill.
Quote
No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.
Well it sounds like its high time we try out some new types of government which will invariably the worst form of government except for all those before it. ;D
What do you suggest?
I'll add that it seems that the world has fallen into some sort of complacency on this front. If you read a book on urban economics, you'll find that during the 19th century everyone in Europe with a utopia in mind would migrate to the US (because Europe didnt have enough freedoms) and start their little utopia-like city (because a full country utopia would take too much resources). All of those crashed a burned of course, but I think it was good for research and progress into how we govern ourselves. It seems these efforts have been extinguished though, so we're stuck with what we've had for the past 50 years, minus communism to some extent.
Title: Re: Democracy is the theory that people know what they want
Post by: John Smith on September 25, 2014, 10:43:09 am
I'm currently reading "The Problem With Political Authority". Excellent analysis.
Market failure is often mentioned, but have you ever heard the term democratic failure? The majority of people don't seem to have considered the possibility that there may flaws, negative outcomes, that are inherent to democracy and the state.
Title: Re: Democracy is the theory that people know what they want
Post by: Lanny on October 05, 2014, 04:48:24 am
Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard
-H.L. Mencken
I think we need to assume even less fault (that is assume more competence) with the populace than to say we don't even know what we want. I think in general we can find consensus on ultimate ends on what our society wants for itself, everyone or almost everyone wants to be secure, have some level of material resources available to them, and opportunities to pursue happiness. The controversy that feeds the american political system lies in the best means to achieve those ends, which really is kind of comical. Even if voters do know what they want (and I think they do) they're still doomed to this political purgatory so long as they can't collectively form an opinion on the best way to do it. Since voters are non-experts on pretty much every major issue we have no reason at all to suspect we'll be able to reach consensus, since the people making the decisions (us) aren't basing them on a common reality but a dogmatic set of pre-beliefs that inform our voting practices which we need to cultivate in order to select courses of action in a range of fields no person (let alone the everyman) could possibly acquire the necessary expertise in within a lifetime. We sometimes bait people into democratic systems by talking about politicians who hold some common sets of goals with you who are going to consult with experts to find the best way of bringing that about, but at least in the US we all know that's not how it works. The means have become the ends and we all care more about free market versus command economy than the actual outcomes of either system.
Title: Re: Democracy is the theory that people know what they want
Post by: John Smith on October 06, 2014, 05:32:06 am
Lanny, have you heard of futarchy? It has a similar basis to your idea, but would most likely work better.
Title: Re: Democracy is the theory that people know what they want
Post by: Lanny on October 06, 2014, 06:35:34 am
I haven't heard of it but from a few minutes of googleing I'm not really convinced. I could maybe see it working in areas where the public doesn't have a priori moralistic objections. I was reading the thing on prediction markets and they gave an example of a speculative market on how/when terrorist attacks were going to happen. I could see that working out, no one has a reason to throw a bet there (except maybe a terrorist), but it's unclear how it would play out on issues where there are more serious pre-evidence objections.
It also seems like some things would be hard to model that way. Like "predicted outcomes of granting increased oil leases" or something is kinda hard when we're trying to decide if we should do it or not. What if all the money stacks on a negative outcome so we decide not to do it, how does that work?
Title: Re: Democracy is the theory that people know what they want
Post by: Goats on October 08, 2014, 04:29:57 am
You have a warm bed in winter and a fridge, oven, stove, internet and video games. Because of democracy.
You have nothing to complain about.
The monkey, who has been removed from nature, and placed in a zoo, now has BANANA whenever he wants, without having to look for it, and swings, and NO LEOPARD'S trying to eat it. But animal liberation is where it's at.
Go fucking whinge somewhere else, if you feel your vote is worthless.
Title: Re: Democracy is the theory that people know what they want
Post by: Lanny on October 08, 2014, 04:45:09 am
You have a warm bed in winter and a fridge, oven, stove, internet and video games. Because of democracy.
Because you know, no one has ever had any of those things under any other system of government... right? Everyone who lived under monarchy... slept on the ground and somehow didn't have ovens?
Title: Re: Democracy is the theory that people know what they want
Post by: John Smith on October 08, 2014, 04:55:07 am
Rizzo, are you already familiar with this?
www.c4ss.org
If not, I'd highly recommended. I think you'll really like the perspective on some issues, particularly by Kevin Carson, that many don't really understand, and miss, despite their immense. This is a very good interview, he's a notably good speaker, I wonder if he's on cannabis during this video, maybe to reduce his anxiety, or because he finds it generally helps with his speaking, people skills, or he could just be using it medicinally for some unknown reason:
And fuck democracy! It's brought destruction. The vast majority of people attribute everything to it yet never consider the harm done and whether an alternate method of organizing would be superior. They believe they can refute any "fringe" ideology with about 3 seconds based on their poorly formed and biased perception of it, generally without having even so much as read the wikipedia page, they already have a bias toward what they want to believe, and only expose themselves to material that only tells them what they hear, incredibly biased and unbalanced sources like Think Progress, Slate, that distort what others say, ask moronic gotcha questions that they think are clever without even trying to look for answers, and know almost nothing about what they're critiquing.
Title: Re: Democracy is the theory that people know what they want
Post by: mmmmmmmQuestions on October 08, 2014, 04:56:58 am