Society => My God Can Beat The Shit Out Of Your God => Topic started by: Shark Jumper on May 29, 2014, 08:23:45 pm
Title: Atheism
Post by: Shark Jumper on May 29, 2014, 08:23:45 pm
This thread is to talk about atheism. Tell stories of how you may or may not have become an atheist. Share your opinions. Argue. ;D
Title: Re: Atheism
Post by: Infinityshock on May 29, 2014, 09:20:10 pm
simple:
show one...just one...example of evidence that follows evidentiary procedure that proves god exists.
no one can. ergo...there is no god, and all you religious zealots are submitting to the oldest and cheapest form of behavioral manipulation in human history
Title: Re: Atheism
Post by: Shark Jumper on May 29, 2014, 09:28:08 pm
show one...just one...example of evidence that follows evidentiary procedure that proves god exists.
no one can. ergo...there is no god, and all you religious zealots are submitting to the oldest and cheapest form of behavioral manipulation in human history
And how would you reply to those who claim the Bible to be all the evidence they need?
Title: Re: Atheism
Post by: Infinityshock on May 29, 2014, 09:37:35 pm
the bible isnt evidence. it was written over thousands of years by individuals who have no cited sources or evidence. the bible couldnt even be used as a paper submitted into any credible college course due to its lack of validity as well as citable sources
the bible is a combination of stories selected by a group of individuals to suit their agenda.
Title: Re: Atheism
Post by: Shark Jumper on May 29, 2014, 10:24:55 pm
the bible isnt evidence. it was written over thousands of years by individuals who have no cited sources or evidence. the bible couldnt even be used as a paper submitted into any credible college course due to its lack of validity as well as citable sources
the bible is a combination of stories selected by a group of individuals to suit their agenda.
Yeah. I usually ask people why they would pay attention to authors who were struggling to explain how the world around them worked. They didn't understand what caused sickness or natural disasters. Why let them tell you something like how the universe was made?
Title: Re: Atheism
Post by: Arnox on May 29, 2014, 10:40:26 pm
show one...just one...example of evidence that follows evidentiary procedure that proves god exists.
*puts on Mormon hat*
Read the Book of Mormon and pray as to its validity with full purpose of heart and real intent (not just buzzwords there) and I guarantee you, you'll receive a witness to your core that the Church is true and God is real.
Of course, it's something that must be discovered for oneself and cannot be taken as proof by anyone else that hasn't done it.
Title: Re: Atheism
Post by: Shark Jumper on May 29, 2014, 10:51:26 pm
Arnox, I really like your signature after your comments.
Title: Re: Atheism
Post by: Arnox on May 29, 2014, 11:15:40 pm
Arnox, I really like your signature after your comments.
*bows* Thank you.
Title: Re: Atheism
Post by: burroughs on May 29, 2014, 11:26:48 pm
I consider myself agnostic, I think.
Most arguments for Atheism I hear poke holes in various Christian beliefs. These might be totally valid arguments against Jesus and such but do nothing to disprove the existence of a creator, one who is not necessarily the God of Abraham. Other, more generalized arguments I've come across propose various paradoxes of a higher being, like, "If God is all powerful, can he create a being more powerful than himself?".
The latter arguments I find to be incredibly silly, because basically, the creator of the universe wouldn't be bound by the rules of his own creation. I.E., if God exists, 1 + 1 = 2 because he fucking said so and for no other reason at all. His being and existence would be so far beyond our comprehension that it's entirely laughable to try and trap him with a game you learned in Philosophy 101.
Title: Re: Atheism
Post by: Shark Jumper on May 30, 2014, 12:00:54 am
Most arguments for Atheism I hear poke holes in various Christian beliefs. These might be totally valid arguments against Jesus and such but do nothing to disprove the existence of a creator, one who is not necessarily the God of Abraham. Other, more generalized arguments I've come across propose various paradoxes of a higher being, like, "If God is all powerful, can he create a being more powerful than himself?".
I usually go by what Christopher Hitchens once said. "That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." ;)
Title: Re: Atheism
Post by: Arnox on May 30, 2014, 12:11:52 am
Perhaps what I hate the most is that Atheism is becoming the cool thing to believe in now and if you're religious at all, you're automatically viewed as a sheep.
Title: Re: Atheism
Post by: buddha on May 30, 2014, 12:18:20 am
Perhaps what I hate the most is that Atheism is becoming the cool thing to believe in now and if you're religious at all, you're automatically viewed as a sheep.
Really, here (southern California) seems like everyone is a Christian, and vocal as fuck about it. That shit's annoying, talking to a girl, and after wasting 30 minutes you find out she's saving herself for Jesus or some shit. GAY
Title: Re: Atheism
Post by: Shark Jumper on May 30, 2014, 12:25:58 am
Perhaps what I hate the most is that Atheism is becoming the cool thing to believe in now and if you're religious at all, you're automatically viewed as a sheep.
Yeah. That does tend to be a problem. It pisses me off too when people ironically flock like sheep to an idea that has become symbolic of free thinking. Many have not come to that conclusion themselves after months or years of hard thought. They do it because they think it's rebellious or "trendy."
Personally, I was raised Christian, and believed it with all my heart. I started to doubt it around age 13. Over those next two years I slowly progressed my thinking and realized that I had no reason, nor did I want to believe in any religion. Been atheist for almost 5 years now. Dropping religion was actually one of the best things I ever did for myself because it helped me to reanalyze any other preconceptions or indoctrination I may have had in my life.
I don't go around militantly preaching atheism, because that makes you just as bad as a dogmatic street preacher. But, if someone engages me in debate of their own volition, I will destroy them. :suspect:
Title: Re: Atheism
Post by: Arnox on May 30, 2014, 12:30:34 am
Really, here (southern California) seems like everyone is a Christian, and vocal as fuck about it. That shit's annoying, talking to a girl, and after wasting 30 minutes you find out she's saving herself for Jesus or some shit. GAY
It has been my experience that a lot of people are either atheist for the wrong reasons or christian for the wrong reasons.
Yeah. That does tend to be a problem. It pisses me off too when people ironically flock like sheep to an idea that has become symbolic of free thinking. Many have not come to that conclusion themselves after months or years of hard thought. They do it because they think it's rebellious or "trendy."
Personally, I was raised Christian, and believed it with all my heart. I started to doubt it around age 13. Over those next two years I slowly progressed my thinking and realized that I had no reason, nor did I want to believe in any religion. Been atheist for almost 5 years now. Dropping religion was actually one of the best things I ever did for myself because it helped me to reanalyze any other preconceptions or indoctrination I may have had in my life.
I don't go around militantly preaching atheism, because that makes you just as bad as a dogmatic street preacher. But, if someone engages me in debate of their own volition, I will destroy them. :suspect:
What are your main reasons for disbelieving Christianity?
Title: Re: Atheism
Post by: buddha on May 30, 2014, 12:36:56 am
Really, here (southern California) seems like everyone is a Christian, and vocal as fuck about it. That shit's annoying, talking to a girl, and after wasting 30 minutes you find out she's saving herself for Jesus or some shit. GAY
It has been my experience that a lot of people are either atheist for the wrong reasons or christian for the wrong reasons.
Yeah. That does tend to be a problem. It pisses me off too when people ironically flock like sheep to an idea that has become symbolic of free thinking. Many have not come to that conclusion themselves after months or years of hard thought. They do it because they think it's rebellious or "trendy."
Personally, I was raised Christian, and believed it with all my heart. I started to doubt it around age 13. Over those next two years I slowly progressed my thinking and realized that I had no reason, nor did I want to believe in any religion. Been atheist for almost 5 years now. Dropping religion was actually one of the best things I ever did for myself because it helped me to reanalyze any other preconceptions or indoctrination I may have had in my life.
I don't go around militantly preaching atheism, because that makes you just as bad as a dogmatic street preacher. But, if someone engages me in debate of their own volition, I will destroy them. :suspect:
What are your main reasons for disbelieving Christianity?
I don't think I said that, or stated any religious preference.
Title: Re: Atheism
Post by: Shark Jumper on May 30, 2014, 01:07:09 am
What are your main reasons for disbelieving Christianity?
Well, I don't only disbelieve Christianity. I maintain that all religions are different versions of the same untruth. However, Christianity being one of the largest religions in the world is somewhat obligated to step up to the plate. Here are my reasons for thinking this.
My primary reason, is that the people who started these religions lived in very ancient times. They were most likely struggling to understand the world around them. They did not know what caused sicknesses. They did not know why floods or tsunamis happened. They didn't even have a clear understanding of the concept of space. Why should anyone take advice from these people when it comes to determining the origin of the universe?
My second reason is, the entire concept of "Heaven" seems to be very poorly thought out and nonsensical. First off, it is a fact that the human brain is operated by chemicals and electrical impulses. Everything you see, hear, taste, smell, and touch is experienced thanks to the brain. After somebody dies, the electrical impulses stop, and the chemicals no longer flow. This means the cessation of all sensory. Just remember back to before you were born... everyone has experienced non existence before they were born. It's probably going to be like that after you're dead.
But for the sake of argument, let's say that Heaven and Hell are real.
Let's begin with (In my opinion the lesser of two evils) Hell. Hell is apparently a place of eternal damnation and torture from which there is no escape. God will send you there for simply not believing in him. Eternal punishment however, is not really punishment at all. It's vengeance. I always say though, that if Hell is real and I go there, at least I'll be with friends.
Now we move on to this "Heaven." It is in the Christian faith that as long as a person accepts Jesus as their lord and savior before or even after their death, they may enter the realm of Heaven. This means that if you go to heaven, you will be there with every murderer, rapist, thief, genocidist, mob boss, and pedophile, who has ever accepted Jesus in the history of mankind. That's a lot of sick people you'd be stuck with for all eternity. Eternity. Such a strange concept, don't you think? What does one do, for eternity? What do you do, when you have thought of every single thought your brain can possibly conceive, and find yourself backtracking on thoughts simply because not thinking is not an option? Just when you have had enough, and the mental torture of infinity is too much, you will realize that you haven't even put a dent in the amount of time that still awaits you. That is Hell, in my eyes. Also, I once asked a Christian, "Is sin the by product of free will?" to which they replied "yes." I went on to inquire, "Is there sin in Heaven?" to which they replied "no." Oh, I see how it is. Heaven is a place where you lose your free will, and become a mindless drone smiling cheerfully as you cradle the balls of your God for the rest of eternity.
Another reason I don't believe in any religion is because of the burden of proof. There is simply no proof that any God exists, and it isn't up to atheists to prove that there isn't a God. Allow me to explain why. If you claim that you can breathe fire, I would probably say, "Cool, do it! I wanna see you prove that you can breathe fire!" If you reply by saying, "You can't prove I can't breathe fire!" Well, that's not really up to me to prove that you can't. You made the claim, so it's up to you to prove its validity.
Religions teach people to be satisfied with not knowing the full truth about the world. This was seen in the lifetime of Galileo, when his life was threatened because he attempted to bring forth evidence that Earth was not the center of our solar system. The powers in control wanted people to stay uninformed and believe that God had their backs. The more science has progressed, the more "God" has been pushed into the gaps of that which we still are yet to prove.
In conclusion. I have no respect for religions, specifically Christianity. Let me explain why. When someone tells me to respect a religion simply because it exists, or is widespread, I ask you the following. Why should I respect an ancient idea, that was spread across the ancient world through bloodshed, fear, and torture. When crusaders came to a new country or continent, they presented the inhabitants with two options. Submit to our religion, or die. They tortured, forced, and indoctrinated people into believing the same things that they did. There is absolutely no respect in that. So when you tell me to respect a religion simply because it is, think of the ancient conquest of bloodshed and horror that lead to that religion being so widespread, and you'll understand why I roll my eyes at you.
I hope that my reasoning for being irreligious is adequate for you. :)
Title: Re: Atheism
Post by: Arnox on May 30, 2014, 01:16:27 am
Wth hell kind of reply is saying you're going to reply? Now go ban yourself for spamming. Thats exactly the reason u banned me
Actually, what happened was that I didn't know Shark replied after buddha, so I just quoted buddha. Which made me look like I missed or didn't care enough to reply to Shark.
Title: Re: Atheism
Post by: Shark Jumper on May 30, 2014, 01:56:30 am
Which made me look like I missed or didn't care enough to reply to Shark.
I did feel a little pang of sadness when I saw your comment, and had not yet gotten to the part where you said you were holding off on mine. :)
Title: Re: Atheism
Post by: Infinityshock on May 30, 2014, 03:49:23 am
anyways....
the purpose of religion is to control a group of people. the collectors of stories for the bible selected stories that suited their agenda, which is population control. everything in all major religions, from the first deities back in sumerian days, is crafted to the purpose of manipulating and controlling the followers. ancient people were too stupid to realize that there was no god that said he wanted their king to be king or their pharoah to be pharoah...or whatever the ancient americans called their ruler-deity. the bible is pure unadulterated fiction with just enough pseudo-facts thrown in to make it palatable for the average sheep
example...in catholicism, if god is all seeing and all knowing, why the fuck would someone need to confess their 'crimes' to a priest? because when this was devised back in the middle ages the church needed to have all the dirty little secrets of the nobility to ensure loyalty. by consent...or otherwise
in judaism...there is no archeological evidence that the jews were ever enslaved in egypt
in the diaper head religion, they just copied it off catholicism/judaism. the fucking hajis couldnt even invent their own...they just perverted and modified the other two abrahamic religions for their own twisted uses.
Title: Re: Atheism
Post by: buddha on May 30, 2014, 03:53:32 am
related
Title: Re: Atheism
Post by: Arnox on May 30, 2014, 08:01:03 am
Well, I don't only disbelieve Christianity. I maintain that all religions are different versions of the same untruth. However, Christianity being one of the largest religions in the world is somewhat obligated to step up to the plate. Here are my reasons for thinking this.
My primary reason, is that the people who started these religions lived in very ancient times. They were most likely struggling to understand the world around them. They did not know what caused sicknesses. They did not know why floods or tsunamis happened. They didn't even have a clear understanding of the concept of space. Why should anyone take advice from these people when it comes to determining the origin of the universe?
My second reason is, the entire concept of "Heaven" seems to be very poorly thought out and nonsensical. First off, it is a fact that the human brain is operated by chemicals and electrical impulses. Everything you see, hear, taste, smell, and touch is experienced thanks to the brain. After somebody dies, the electrical impulses stop, and the chemicals no longer flow. This means the cessation of all sensory. Just remember back to before you were born... everyone has experienced non existence before they were born. It's probably going to be like that after you're dead.
But for the sake of argument, let's say that Heaven and Hell are real.
Let's begin with (In my opinion the lesser of two evils) Hell. Hell is apparently a place of eternal damnation and torture from which there is no escape. God will send you there for simply not believing in him. Eternal punishment however, is not really punishment at all. It's vengeance. I always say though, that if Hell is real and I go there, at least I'll be with friends.
Now we move on to this "Heaven." It is in the Christian faith that as long as a person accepts Jesus as their lord and savior before or even after their death, they may enter the realm of Heaven. This means that if you go to heaven, you will be there with every murderer, rapist, thief, genocidist, mob boss, and pedophile, who has ever accepted Jesus in the history of mankind. That's a lot of sick people you'd be stuck with for all eternity. Eternity. Such a strange concept, don't you think? What does one do, for eternity? What do you do, when you have thought of every single thought your brain can possibly conceive, and find yourself backtracking on thoughts simply because not thinking is not an option? Just when you have had enough, and the mental torture of infinity is too much, you will realize that you haven't even put a dent in the amount of time that still awaits you. That is Hell, in my eyes. Also, I once asked a Christian, "Is sin the by product of free will?" to which they replied "yes." I went on to inquire, "Is there sin in Heaven?" to which they replied "no." Oh, I see how it is. Heaven is a place where you lose your free will, and become a mindless drone smiling cheerfully as you cradle the balls of your God for the rest of eternity.
Another reason I don't believe in any religion is because of the burden of proof. There is simply no proof that any God exists, and it isn't up to atheists to prove that there isn't a God. Allow me to explain why. If you claim that you can breathe fire, I would probably say, "Cool, do it! I wanna see you prove that you can breathe fire!" If you reply by saying, "You can't prove I can't breathe fire!" Well, that's not really up to me to prove that you can't. You made the claim, so it's up to you to prove its validity.
Religions teach people to be satisfied with not knowing the full truth about the world. This was seen in the lifetime of Galileo, when his life was threatened because he attempted to bring forth evidence that Earth was not the center of our solar system. The powers in control wanted people to stay uninformed and believe that God had their backs. The more science has progressed, the more "God" has been pushed into the gaps of that which we still are yet to prove.
In conclusion. I have no respect for religions, specifically Christianity. Let me explain why. When someone tells me to respect a religion simply because it exists, or is widespread, I ask you the following.
Why should I respect an ancient idea, that was spread across the ancient world through bloodshed, fear, and torture. When crusaders came to a new country or continent, they presented the inhabitants with two options. Submit to our religion, or die. They tortured, forced, and indoctrinated people into believing the same things that they did. There is absolutely no respect in that. So when you tell me to respect a religion simply because it is, think of the ancient conquest of bloodshed and horror that lead to that religion being so widespread, and you'll understand why I roll my eyes at you.
I hope that my reasoning for being irreligious is adequate for you. :)
Alright, the FIRST thing I want to start off with is a disclaimer. I am not going to defend other christian religions and all their different beliefs. I'm only going to defend my belief in Mormonism. OK then.
1. We believe that man didn't start religion. We believe our religion was handed down from God to man by angels right at the beginning of our life here on earth.
2. Why can't both the brain and soul work together? We believe the soul is the truest essence of you. The body, and by extension, the brain are just tools to be used by our souls to experience and manipulate the world we are in. And further, you wouldn't remember before you were born because a veil was put over your mind, and my mind, and everyone else's mind that has ever lived on this earth. For you to suddenly appear into existence is complete and utter nonsense in Mormon eyes, and so is the concept of all of a sudden ceasing to exist. We also believe that we all existed as primal intelligences from eternity to eternity. It is this primal intelligence that is made into our spirits. Each one of us has existed an eternity before the world was made, and will continue to exist for an equally infinite amount of time.
3. Let me just stop you right there. In Mormonism, where we go after death is actually much more complicated than just Heaven or Hell. For one, when you die, you go to the Spirit World, no matter who you are or what you did. From there though, you can either go to Spirit Paradise or Spirit Prison. There's a massive amount to say about it so I'm just gonna direct you to our official sources here where you can read what you like.
After the Spirit World, when the second coming comes, we'll finally be sorted into degrees of glory depending on everything we've done thus far.
4. It takes a lot more to get to the highest degree of glory than just accepting Jesus as your Savior. Even the middle one takes more than that. So no, if you've done what's required to make it into one of those two, you won't be sitting with people who've committed such gross sins.
5. What do you do in Eternity? Why, what you've been trying to do in mortality. Progress. Make no mistake, you're NOT going to be sitting around playing some stupid harp. We're all literal sons and daughters of God. It is our goal to grow and progress continually until we are gods ourselves. How we do this is an entire subject that I won't get into. For right now, just know that we hold within each of ourselves so much potential, it is literally immeasurable.
6. Is sin the byproduct of free will? As in unavoidable? No. Well, it is in our imperfect mortal state, but as we PROGRESS, we perfect ourselves until we are finally complete. Because that's what it means to be perfect. To be absolute and complete.
7. What proof is there? There's personal proof for one which is the best kind. Please see my first post in this thread.
8. You say that religion teaches people to be satisfied with not knowing the whole truth. Well, does science have all the answers now? No. Not in the slightest. And further, let's not forget all the atrocities that were committed in the name of science too. For example, eugenics was pretty fun. Oh yeah, and the Stanford Prison Experiment. That was incredible. Heck, let's just list them all (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unethical_human_experimentation_in_the_United_States). Oh my goodness! That's quite a list. And only in the US too! tsk tsk
Nevertheless, yes. Religion has been used as an excuse for gross immorality for hundred of years, if not thousands. But the thing is, if it wasn't religion, it would have been something else, you can be sure of that. Religion isn't the source of humanities crimes. Humans are. Simple as that. Religion's been used for a lot of good things as well. Just as science has. And as for science 'pushing God into the gaps', actually, a lot of scientists become MORE religious, the more they study the world around them. It's mainly because they're starting to realize that this world is a little TOO orderly. Too soundly built. Too beautiful to be just a big coincidence.
Looking forward to your response.
Title: Re: Atheism
Post by: Hex535 on May 30, 2014, 03:34:30 pm
All that I know, Is that in this mess of existence, in the star dust that this planet was formed from, I am alive and contained within a unique physical manifestation. I am the universe experiencing itself. I am a thought, a thought thinking independently while making more thoughts. Through Carbon and Calcium and Iron and electrical charges I exist, and even the words I type only hold meaning to my perceptive standpoint.
I do not know what an individual atom perceives, or if it does perceive, and I also claim no control over said atom. all I know is that I am a random but precise amalgamation of these pieces, and someday I will be broken back down into these individual parts, indivisibly, until my perception no longer does justice to the realms or manifestations in time and space.
There is no such being based off of Man's image that created the concurrence of the universe and all that exists. To think that there is a being of omnipotence based after ourselves, in my opinion, is arrogant, selfish, and one sided. Never has a carbon organism before us done such a drastic phenomena, and with this forced self entitlement, we will see our collapse.
To believe in the Aether is not to believe in nothing. It is to substantiate and look forward to rejoining the deconstructed forms of our being and planet when the time comes, and to look forward to a realm or plane of existence that is beyond our current perception.
Peace and love to all, I am me, I hold no title in belief, and I wish no harm to anyone who thinks differently. I control myself, and that is it. And within my self control I find peace.
Title: Re: Atheism
Post by: Shark Jumper on May 30, 2014, 11:41:49 pm
Alright, the FIRST thing I want to start off with is a disclaimer. I am not going to defend other christian religions and all their different beliefs. I'm only going to defend my belief in Mormonism. OK then.
1. We believe that man didn't start religion. We believe our religion was handed down from God to man by angels right at the beginning of our life here on earth.
2. Why can't both the brain and soul work together? We believe the soul is the truest essence of you. The body, and by extension, the brain are just tools to be used by our souls to experience and manipulate the world we are in. And further, you wouldn't remember before you were born because a veil was put over your mind, and my mind, and everyone else's mind that has ever lived on this earth. For you to suddenly appear into existence is complete and utter nonsense in Mormon eyes, and so is the concept of all of a sudden ceasing to exist. We also believe that we all existed as primal intelligences from eternity to eternity.
3. Let me just stop you right there. In Mormonism, where we go after death is actually much more complicated than just Heaven or Hell. For one, when you die, you go to the Spirit World, no matter who you are or what you did. From there though, you can either go to Spirit Paradise or Spirit Prison. There's a massive amount to say about it so I'm just gonna direct you to our official sources here where you can read what you like.
After the Spirit World, when the second coming comes, we'll finally be sorted into degrees of glory depending on everything we've done thus far.
4. It takes a lot more to get to the highest degree of glory than just accepting Jesus as your Savior. Even the middle one takes more than that. So no, if you've done what's required to make it into one of those two, you won't be sitting with people who've committed such gross sins.
5. What do you do in Eternity? Why, what you've been trying to do in mortality. Progress. Make no mistake, you're NOT going to be sitting around playing some stupid harp. We're all literal sons and daughters of God. It is our goal to grow and progress continually until we are gods ourselves. How we do this is an entire subject that I won't get into. For right now, just know that we hold within each of ourselves so much potential, it is literally immeasurable.
6. Is sin the byproduct of free will? As in unavoidable? No. Well, it is in our imperfect mortal state, but as we PROGRESS, we perfect ourselves until we are finally complete. Because that's what it means to be perfect. To be absolute and complete.
7. What proof is there? There's personal proof for one which is the best kind. Please see my first post in this thread.
8. You say that religion teaches people to be satisfied with not knowing the whole truth. Well, does science have all the answers now? No. Not in the slightest. And further, let's not forget all the atrocities that were committed in the name of science too. For example, eugenics was pretty fun. Oh yeah, and the Stanford Prison Experiment. That was incredible. Heck, let's just list them all (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unethical_human_experimentation_in_the_United_States). Oh my goodness! That's quite a list. And only in the US too! tsk tsk
Nevertheless, yes. Religion has been used as an excuse for gross immorality for hundred of years, if not thousands. But the thing is, if it wasn't religion, it would have been something else, you can be sure of that. Religion isn't the source of humanities crimes. Humans are. Simple as that. Religion's been used for a lot of good things as well. Just as science has. And as for science 'pushing God into the gaps', actually, a lot of scientists become MORE religious, the more they study the world around them. It's mainly because they're starting to realize that this world is a little TOO orderly. Too soundly built. Too beautiful to be just a big coincidence.
Looking forward to your response.
Nice reply! I learned a lot about Mormonism, which I had not looked into very much before now. I am going to reply with numbered points, addressing each of your points of the corresponding number. However, I'll be condensing some points that were of similar topic. Before I begin, I must ask, would you agree, that the mainstream concept of the Christian heaven is horrific? Becoming a lobotomized servant along with other piece of shit humans for the rest of eternity?
1. This point will be addressed in my response to point number 7, which mainly comes down to providing substantial evidence.
2. I don't see any reason why a brain and a hypothetical soul could not work together. But still, there is yet to be any substantial evidence proving that a "soul" is even real. And don't even get me started on the Duncan MacDougall experiment, because that one has been debunked as water vapor evaporating off the human body. You also talked about a veil of some sorts? If it makes people forget everything? How would they even know it was there, let alone all of these realms and prisons you speak of? Also, I'm not saying that people suddenly appear and disappear from existence. I was just talking about how living organisms are formed from the moment of conception and how they die and decompose. This applies to all animals, not just humans. I'm not an expert on evolution or DNA, so I wont go on too much more about that kind of stuff! :P Also, why is it so nonsensical to imagine the cessation of sensation. I never meant that you just cease to exist. I meant that your brain starts shutting down as you die, and eventually stops working. When your brain doesn't work anymore, and has decomposed and been eaten by worms and bacteria, nitrogen fixation and the like, you wont be able to experience anything. Proof of this is seen in stroke victims. If a certain part of the stroke victims brain has been damaged. They will be unable to perform tasks that require that part of the brain. ie. Lifting your left arm. Another example is if a person sustains damage to their occipital cortex, rendering them blind for the remainder of their life. If damage to the brain can render a sense obsolete, think of what a dead/decomposing brain would do. Yet another example of how the brain is responsible for everything you experience is the cerebellum. This part of the brain forms memories. Scientists have actually been able to see the brain form molecules into memories. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/01/140123141711.htm (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/01/140123141711.htm)
So, humanity is a conglomerate of eternal primal intelligence cores lasting from eternity to eternity? How would you explain the fact that the world's population is rising exponentially? You said it was nonsensical for Mormons to believe in new beings just appearing, but I don't see any other way your religion would explain the global population increase.
3. Not much I can really say here other than that the Mormon idea of Heaven is considerably less horrific than the primary Christian belief. Regardless, I'd just refer you back to everything I said in point 2.
4. "We're all literal sons and daughters of God. It is our goal to grow and progress continually until we are gods ourselves." - Arnox
"It is this primal intelligence that is made into our spirits. Each one of us has existed an eternity before the world was made, and will continue to exist for an equally infinite amount of time." - Arnox
You lost me here. Do we exist for all eternity as primal intelligence, or do we progress unto being gods? Also, if there are multiple gods, then what is the point of any one god being all powerful? This whole point you made here didn't make much sense to me, and clarification would be appreciated.
5. Who determines what is "Perfect"? Also, what happens when somebody's idea of progression doesn't match up with this master idea of perfect? There are tons of scientists who find joy out of studying evolution and progressing our scientific knowledge. They've made it their life's work. What happens to them? They go to spirit prison, or lose what gave their life meaning? What the actual fuck. :'(
6. Ahh yes. On to proof. Unfortunately, personal proof just doesn't cut it. Personal proof is the same exact thing as convincing yourself that something is true. Also, when a claim as extraordinary as the existence of a god who has specific rules is made, extraordinary evidence is required. Think of it like this:
-John Smith gets a hole in one on the golf course. If he tells somebody, they might not believe him. However, since this isn't necessarily an extraordinary claim, it might just take a few friends who were there to confirm the story. -Sally Jenkins has dinner with the President of the United States. If she goes and tells people this, she most likely will not be believed, as this is quite a claim to make. It would probably require evidence along the lines of official documentation and paperwork to convince people. -Arnox claims that God and his angles handed down the knowledge that we are primal intelligence beings who are reincarnated for all eternity with mind wiping veils to prevent us from going insane. A claim like this should require an EXTRAORDINARY amount of proof to convince most people that it is true. It's going to take a lot more than eyewitness claims from 150 years ago, or personal affirmation experiences.
7. "Well, does science have all the answers now? No. Not in the slightest."-Arnox No. Science does not have all the answers. But the prime difference between religion and science is that we are finding more and more answers every day. Don't you see? Every step science takes forwards, religion takes one step back. This is because science is not a belief, it is a process. A process based on proof, evidence, and repeatable testing. And quite frankly, it works. Watch this video to see what I'm talking about. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uephBmkupvQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uephBmkupvQ)
"But the thing is, if it wasn't religion, it would have been something else, you can be sure of that. Religion isn't the source of humanities crimes. Humans are. Simple as that. Religion's been used for a lot of good things as well. Just as science has."-Arnox
I've got to agree with you about humanity being the source of crimes. As for the "atrocities" committed in the name of science. The truth is that many of those were not committed in the "name of science," they were committed because somebody wanted something. Take eugenics for example. People wanted to form a more fit society by sterilizing those who they saw as unfit to reproduce. So they used the top of the line experiment and scientific knowledge they had. That doesn't mean that science is evil, or that they did it in the name of science. It's just what happens when people use science for a wrongdoing, which can happen. On the flip-side, though, science has led to many great things like antibiotics, penicillin, automobiles, radios, planes, clean energy, effective medication, surgery, physics, astrophysics, space travel, fertilizer, etc. What has religion done to help? I've got to agree, mass community service projects are really fuckin' awesome. But beyond that, what is there? Faith healing? Praying your way to the moon? Praying for your polio diagnosed child to be able to walk?
"And as for science 'pushing God into the gaps', actually, a lot of scientists become MORE religious, the more they study the world around them. It's mainly because they're starting to realize that this world is a little TOO orderly. Too soundly built. Too beautiful to be just a big coincidence."-Arnox Oh really? Wikipedia seems to think otherwise! :P "Among the members of the National Academy of Sciences, 7% believed in God, 72.2% did not, and 20.8% were agnostic or had doubts."-Wikipedia
I will leave you with one of my favorite videos. I really suggest watching in full screen and HD, because I hope this video will inspire you to see the natural beauty in life, and not the man made beauty that religion has made people believe. When you accept the universe/life as being probably a giant fucking fluke, it becomes so much more wonderful and amazing. You're a very enjoyable person to discuss these matters with. :) Thank you, and I look forward to your response.
Title: Re: Atheism
Post by: Infinityshock on May 31, 2014, 12:24:49 am
Theres nothing wrong with eugenics. As a matter of fact if humanity spent a small fraction of the effort on human genetic improvement that they spend on animal husbandry the human race would be vastly improved
Title: Re: Atheism
Post by: Shark Jumper on May 31, 2014, 12:45:59 am
Theres nothing wrong with eugenics. As a matter of fact if humanity spent a small fraction of the effort on human genetic improvement that they spend on animal husbandry the human race would be vastly improved
I think eugenics is wrong because it's not up to other people to tell if someone should be able to have kids or not. I fully agree it could improve certain aspects of the human race, but still. You shouldn't tell other people what they can and cannot do.
Title: Re: Atheism
Post by: Shark Jumper on May 31, 2014, 12:52:59 am
All that I know, Is that in this mess of existence, in the star dust that this planet was formed from, I am alive and contained within a unique physical manifestation. I am the universe experiencing itself. I am a thought, a thought thinking independently while making more thoughts. Through Carbon and Calcium and Iron and electrical charges I exist, and even the words I type only hold meaning to my perceptive standpoint.
I do not know what an individual atom perceives, or if it does perceive, and I also claim no control over said atom. all I know is that I am a random but precise amalgamation of these pieces, and someday I will be broken back down into these individual parts, indivisibly, until my perception no longer does justice to the realms or manifestations in time and space.
There is no such being based off of Man's image that created the concurrence of the universe and all that exists. To think that there is a being of omnipotence based after ourselves, in my opinion, is arrogant, selfish, and one sided. Never has a carbon organism before us done such a drastic phenomena, and with this forced self entitlement, we will see our collapse.
To believe in the Aether is not to believe in nothing. It is to substantiate and look forward to rejoining the deconstructed forms of our being and planet when the time comes, and to look forward to a realm or plane of existence that is beyond our current perception.
Peace and love to all, I am me, I hold no title in belief, and I wish no harm to anyone who thinks differently. I control myself, and that is it. And within my self control I find peace.
Holy shit Hex, you basically just described my outlook on the universe. :o You and I think very alike. Like seriously, you have no fucking idea how happy I am you wrote that. It's a relief knowing I'm not the only person who thinks that way, even if I don't have the ability to put it into words like you can.
Title: Re: Atheism
Post by: Infinityshock on May 31, 2014, 02:50:02 am
Theres nothing wrong with eugenics. As a matter of fact if humanity spent a small fraction of the effort on human genetic improvement that they spend on animal husbandry the human race would be vastly improved
I think eugenics is wrong because it's not up to other people to tell if someone should be able to have kids or not. I fully agree it could improve certain aspects of the human race, but still. You shouldn't tell other people what they can and cannot do.
No government or ruling body follows any part of that
Title: Re: Atheism
Post by: Shark Jumper on May 31, 2014, 03:21:10 am
I think eugenics is wrong because it's not up to other people to tell if someone should be able to have kids or not. I fully agree it could improve certain aspects of the human race, but still. You shouldn't tell other people what they can and cannot do.
No government or ruling body follows any part of that
I'm afraid I don't follow... How does no ruling body taking part make it okay for somebody to tell someone else what they can and cannot do with their body?
Title: Re: Atheism
Post by: Hex535 on May 31, 2014, 01:04:58 pm
I don't mean to sound Immoral, but I do think there are waaay to many people on this planet. A little bit of eugenics here and there isnt a bad thing.
Title: Re: Atheism
Post by: Infinityshock on May 31, 2014, 01:23:50 pm
I think eugenics is wrong because it's not up to other people to tell if someone should be able to have kids or not. I fully agree it could improve certain aspects of the human race, but still. You shouldn't tell other people what they can and cannot do.
No government or ruling body follows any part of that
I'm afraid I don't follow... How does no ruling body taking part make it okay for somebody to tell someone else what they can and cannot do with their body?
U didn't think that reply out vry thoroughly
Abortion laws Drug laws Medical laws 'Mental health' laws Fag love laws Prostitution laws Euthanasia laws I could go on and on for pages. The fact is, anyone that thinks they have the right to the sanctity of their own body is fooling themselves
Title: Re: Atheism
Post by: Infinityshock on May 31, 2014, 01:25:48 pm
I'm afraid I don't follow... How does no ruling body taking part make it okay for somebody to tell someone else what they can and cannot do with their body?
U didn't think that reply out vry thoroughly
Abortion laws Drug laws Medical laws 'Mental health' laws Fag love laws Prostitution laws Euthanasia laws I could go on and on for pages. The fact is, anyone that thinks they have the right to the sanctity of their own body is fooling themselves
I understand now. I was really tired when I read this last night. That's probably why my response was nonsensical.
Real response: I fully realize the government does all those things, but I don't think that makes them okay.
Title: Re: Atheism
Post by: Infinityshock on May 31, 2014, 02:58:15 pm
Of course not but they still do it and people let them
Title: Re: Atheism
Post by: Shark Jumper on May 31, 2014, 03:02:54 pm
Nice reply! I learned a lot about Mormonism, which I had not looked into very much before now. I am going to reply with numbered points, addressing each of your points of the corresponding number. However, I'll be condensing some points that were of similar topic. Before I begin, I must ask, would you agree, that the mainstream concept of the Christian heaven is horrific? Becoming a lobotomized servant along with other piece of shit humans for the rest of eternity?
1. This point will be addressed in my response to point number 7, which mainly comes down to providing substantial evidence.
2. I don't see any reason why a brain and a hypothetical soul could not work together. But still, there is yet to be any substantial evidence proving that a "soul" is even real. And don't even get me started on the Duncan MacDougall experiment, because that one has been debunked as water vapor evaporating off the human body. You also talked about a veil of some sorts? If it makes people forget everything? How would they even know it was there, let alone all of these realms and prisons you speak of? Also, I'm not saying that people suddenly appear and disappear from existence. I was just talking about how living organisms are formed from the moment of conception and how they die and decompose. This applies to all animals, not just humans. I'm not an expert on evolution or DNA, so I wont go on too much more about that kind of stuff! :P Also, why is it so nonsensical to imagine the cessation of sensation. I never meant that you just cease to exist. I meant that your brain starts shutting down as you die, and eventually stops working. When your brain doesn't work anymore, and has decomposed and been eaten by worms and bacteria, nitrogen fixation and the like, you wont be able to experience anything. Proof of this is seen in stroke victims. If a certain part of the stroke victims brain has been damaged. They will be unable to perform tasks that require that part of the brain. ie. Lifting your left arm. Another example is if a person sustains damage to their occipital cortex, rendering them blind for the remainder of their life. If damage to the brain can render a sense obsolete, think of what a dead/decomposing brain would do. Yet another example of how the brain is responsible for everything you experience is the cerebellum. This part of the brain forms memories. Scientists have actually been able to see the brain form molecules into memories. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/01/140123141711.htm (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/01/140123141711.htm)
So, humanity is a conglomerate of eternal primal intelligence cores lasting from eternity to eternity? How would you explain the fact that the world's population is rising exponentially? You said it was nonsensical for Mormons to believe in new beings just appearing, but I don't see any other way your religion would explain the global population increase.
3. Not much I can really say here other than that the Mormon idea of Heaven is considerably less horrific than the primary Christian belief. Regardless, I'd just refer you back to everything I said in point 2.
4. "We're all literal sons and daughters of God. It is our goal to grow and progress continually until we are gods ourselves." - Arnox
"It is this primal intelligence that is made into our spirits. Each one of us has existed an eternity before the world was made, and will continue to exist for an equally infinite amount of time." - Arnox
You lost me here. Do we exist for all eternity as primal intelligence, or do we progress unto being gods? Also, if there are multiple gods, then what is the point of any one god being all powerful? This whole point you made here didn't make much sense to me, and clarification would be appreciated.
5. Who determines what is "Perfect"? Also, what happens when somebody's idea of progression doesn't match up with this master idea of perfect? There are tons of scientists who find joy out of studying evolution and progressing our scientific knowledge. They've made it their life's work. What happens to them? They go to spirit prison, or lose what gave their life meaning? What the actual fuck. :'(
6. Ahh yes. On to proof. Unfortunately, personal proof just doesn't cut it. Personal proof is the same exact thing as convincing yourself that something is true. Also, when a claim as extraordinary as the existence of a god who has specific rules is made, extraordinary evidence is required. Think of it like this:
-John Smith gets a hole in one on the golf course. If he tells somebody, they might not believe him. However, since this isn't necessarily an extraordinary claim, it might just take a few friends who were there to confirm the story. -Sally Jenkins has dinner with the President of the United States. If she goes and tells people this, she most likely will not be believed, as this is quite a claim to make. It would probably require evidence along the lines of official documentation and paperwork to convince people. -Arnox claims that God and his angles handed down the knowledge that we are primal intelligence beings who are reincarnated for all eternity with mind wiping veils to prevent us from going insane. A claim like this should require an EXTRAORDINARY amount of proof to convince most people that it is true. It's going to take a lot more than eyewitness claims from 150 years ago, or personal affirmation experiences.
7. "Well, does science have all the answers now? No. Not in the slightest."-Arnox No. Science does not have all the answers. But the prime difference between religion and science is that we are finding more and more answers every day. Don't you see? Every step science takes forwards, religion takes one step back. This is because science is not a belief, it is a process. A process based on proof, evidence, and repeatable testing. And quite frankly, it works. Watch this video to see what I'm talking about. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uephBmkupvQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uephBmkupvQ)
"But the thing is, if it wasn't religion, it would have been something else, you can be sure of that. Religion isn't the source of humanities crimes. Humans are. Simple as that. Religion's been used for a lot of good things as well. Just as science has."-Arnox
I've got to agree with you about humanity being the source of crimes. As for the "atrocities" committed in the name of science. The truth is that many of those were not committed in the "name of science," they were committed because somebody wanted something. Take eugenics for example. People wanted to form a more fit society by sterilizing those who they saw as unfit to reproduce. So they used the top of the line experiment and scientific knowledge they had. That doesn't mean that science is evil, or that they did it in the name of science. It's just what happens when people use science for a wrongdoing, which can happen. On the flip-side, though, science has led to many great things like antibiotics, penicillin, automobiles, radios, planes, clean energy, effective medication, surgery, physics, astrophysics, space travel, fertilizer, etc. What has religion done to help? I've got to agree, mass community service projects are really fuckin' awesome. But beyond that, what is there? Faith healing? Praying your way to the moon? Praying for your polio diagnosed child to be able to walk?
"And as for science 'pushing God into the gaps', actually, a lot of scientists become MORE religious, the more they study the world around them. It's mainly because they're starting to realize that this world is a little TOO orderly. Too soundly built. Too beautiful to be just a big coincidence."-Arnox Oh really? Wikipedia seems to think otherwise! :P "Among the members of the National Academy of Sciences, 7% believed in God, 72.2% did not, and 20.8% were agnostic or had doubts."-Wikipedia
I will leave you with one of my favorite videos. I really suggest watching in full screen and HD, because I hope this video will inspire you to see the natural beauty in life, and not the man made beauty that religion has made people believe. When you accept the universe/life as being probably a giant fucking fluke, it becomes so much more wonderful and amazing. You're a very enjoyable person to discuss these matters with. :) Thank you, and I look forward to your response.
Well, of course I think it's horrific, but I think it's downright untrue as well so it's irrelevant to me.
1. See point 7 then.
2. Of course there's no actual proof. Because if there was proof of a soul, that would be proof of God. And God doesn't want that. He wants faith. More on this later.
We know about the veil because we were told about it. Just as we were told about how the world began in Genesis and how Jesus went around, preaching the gospel in the New Testament. And the veil doesn't make you forget EVERYTHING, just everything that happened before you were born.
Yes, of course, beings are born and they die. Their bodies do decompose. I don't know exactly what you're claiming here or if you're asking something.
One thing you need to remember is that the body is a TOOL used by the soul. The soul is bound to it as long as the body is living. Like a computer. If the monitor goes out, does that mean the whole computer is broken? No. Just the monitor. When parts of the brain die, that means the soul can no longer make use of those parts. So, it effectively gets a "No Signal" from those parts of the brain. When the body ceases to live altogether, the body relinquishes its hold on the soul and the soul moves on to the Spirit World.
I should also add that the soul is indeed made of matter but a matter that's so refined and pure that it's impossible to see with our eyes or our tools.
Primal intelligences vary greatly in their potential. Not all of them are human. We don't know too much about them but we do know that they are infinite in number. So it wouldn't be a problem at all to fill this entire earth. So a primal intelligence is made into a soul which is usually assigned a time and place to be on an earth of some sort with a body. That is the basic process of how beings are, for lack of a better word, made.
3. See point 2.
4. Sorry, I wasn't being clear here. We existed at first as primal intelligences then we became fully fledged souls, then we obtained bodies, and so on. Finally, we reach a stage where we become gods ourselves. How that will work exactly, I don't really know. This is way down the line though. Like WAAAYYYYYYYYYY DDOOOOOOOOWWWWWNNNN the line.
5. lol No, no, no, no. Becoming perfect does not mean you need to be EXACTLY THE SAME as God himself. But again, remember the definition of perfection: to be whole and undamaged. To basically be better than yourself. So much to the point where you can no longer improve. Until you're an utter master of everything that was, is, and shall be. Everyone has flaws. The only one that didn't was Jesus Christ. Studying evolution is not a flaw. It's just what they're doing and has no real correlation with what we're discussing right now. One thing you also need to know is that while God is just, he is also merciful. He loves us completely and wants the absolute best for us. He is our HEAVENLY FATHER after all. His work is "to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." (Immortality and eternal life are two very separate things BTW. The former means you can no longer be split from your body which can no longer be damaged in any way and the latter means a life of a god.) His work isn't to condemn as many of us filthy humans as he can.
6. You're right. It would require more proof than that. But I also think you're misunderstanding me when I say "personal proof". I'll just relate to you my personal story of how I found out the church was REALLY true. Perhaps you'll understand then.
I was rather young when I first prayed. Must have been about, oh, 11 or 12 years old, give or take. I was riding off of my parents testimony that the church was true for so long, but finally, it stopped being a good reason to believe in the church. I knew that MILLIONS of people had prayed and received a confirmation of true in their hearts and I thought that was enough for me, but as time went on, it really wasn't. And that's when I knew I needed to pray and learn for myself. So, that night, I kneeled down in my bedroom and pray to know if the church was true, if the scriptures were true, and if Joseph Smith really was a true prophet of God, and man, I got hit by a metaphorical train that night.
This feeling I all of a sudden felt, it was so insanely strong. It was a feeling of pure, blissful happiness. Of love. Of amazing clarity. And it came out of nowhere. And then I knew in my heart that yes, the church was true, the scriptures were true, and Joseph was indeed a prophet. I knew down to the depths of my own soul. And ever since, that feeling and that moment has stayed with me my entire life. And even now, not too long ago, I experienced this same feeling again. Perhaps even a little stronger. I won't say how that came about though as that's another long story I don't have time for here.
And that's what I mean when I say "personal proof". You can have this confirmation too if you wanted. You just need to read the Book of Mormon at least somewhat and then pray with full purpose of heart and real intent (again, those two are important) and ask if it's true.
7. Mormonism is a growing religion too. Actually, it's one of the things that separates us from a bunch of other christian churches. Other churches say they have the Bible and they don't need any more of God's word. We take a MUCH more different stance. Specifically, we believe in literal continued revelation from God, whether it comes to us through the promptings of the Holy Ghost or through our prophet. So yes, Mormonism is always expanding as well.
Another thing you seem to think is that religion and science cannot exist together for some reason. Let me bring up a great quote I read a while ago.
Quote from: Kendal B. Hunter
There really is no such thing as "science." There are just various theories in various states of verification. Likewise, there are various religions, with various strengths. When we ask if science conflicts with religion, which apples are we comparing? The question itself needs to be questioned.
Your science is effective critical thinking and collaboration. Which is just fine. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. However, what I have a problem with is when people take some new theory that scientists put out and tout it as proof against religion. Yeah, I don't like that very much at all. Let's assume for just a second that Mormonism is completely true. Don't you think the conclusions we come to when practicing science should align with established truth?
Which leads me to one the things in Mormonism that I just love completely. The more you study it, the more you notice how much SENSE it all makes. It's beautiful really how everything connects in a seamless way. Everything has a purpose. Everything has a suitable reason. I don't find this with other religions or beliefs at all. They always seem to have SOMETHING wrong with them in my eyes. And there is proof besides the type I talked about above. But those are for later when you have faith.
There is one thing I'd like to bring up though and that is this: "When you accept the universe/life as being probably a giant fucking fluke, it becomes so much more wonderful and amazing."
I'm sorry but I REALLY don't understand this one bit. How would it be nice if the whole universe just happened because of random chance? That means everything we were, are, will be, and have done, is utterly POINTLESS. Everything would be pointless. How is ceasing to exist upon death a good thing in the slightest? It's not even a neutral thing. It's downright horrifying.
Anyway, I should add that a lot of the questions you're asking and subjects you're talking about are rather advanced stuff. Besides all that though, thanks. I'm glad you mean well and aren't just here to argue like a lot of people on the internet do. I appreciate that.
Title: Re: Atheism
Post by: burroughs on June 01, 2014, 03:27:39 am
In conclusion. I have no respect for religions, specifically Christianity. Let me explain why. When someone tells me to respect a religion simply because it exists, or is widespread, I ask you the following. Why should I respect an ancient idea, that was spread across the ancient world through bloodshed, fear, and torture. When crusaders came to a new country or continent, they presented the inhabitants with two options. Submit to our religion, or die. They tortured, forced, and indoctrinated people into believing the same things that they did. There is absolutely no respect in that. So when you tell me to respect a religion simply because it is, think of the ancient conquest of bloodshed and horror that lead to that religion being so widespread, and you'll understand why I roll my eyes at you.
No idea should simply command your respect but that's a poorly thought out response to your hypothetical scenario. Think of all the terrible acts that have been committed in the name of Darwinism (Eugenics) and Marxism (which generally has a hard-on for atheism and is vehemently anti-religion).
I realize Arnox's question was specifically about Christianity but I hope you know that religion != God. You can find everything you mentioned to be perfectly silly but still believe in some other high power.
I also disagree on your burden of proof stance. Not believing in a high power is just as much a statement as is believing. The real question here is "Who or what created the universe?" and the answer you give basically equates to "I don't know, but not that."
Title: Re: Atheism
Post by: Shark Jumper on June 01, 2014, 09:19:46 pm
In conclusion. I have no respect for religions, specifically Christianity. Let me explain why. When someone tells me to respect a religion simply because it exists, or is widespread, I ask you the following. Why should I respect an ancient idea, that was spread across the ancient world through bloodshed, fear, and torture. When crusaders came to a new country or continent, they presented the inhabitants with two options. Submit to our religion, or die. They tortured, forced, and indoctrinated people into believing the same things that they did. There is absolutely no respect in that. So when you tell me to respect a religion simply because it is, think of the ancient conquest of bloodshed and horror that lead to that religion being so widespread, and you'll understand why I roll my eyes at you.
No idea should simply command your respect but that's a poorly thought out response to your hypothetical scenario. Think of all the terrible acts that have been committed in the name of Darwinism (Eugenics) and Marxism (which generally has a hard-on for atheism and is vehemently anti-religion).
I realize Arnox's question was specifically about Christianity but I hope you know that religion != God. You can find everything you mentioned to be perfectly silly but still believe in some other high power.
I also disagree on your burden of proof stance. Not believing in a high power is just as much a statement as is believing. The real question here is "Who or what created the universe?" and the answer you give basically equates to "I don't know, but not that."
I see the acts committed in the name of Darwinism to be just as bad. I'm not fighting in the name of science or Darwinism. I'm discussing concepts in the name of peace and reason. Whenever somebody thinks they can tell someone else what to do in the name of X, I hate it. X=God X=Darwinism X=Safety My main policy I have is that I think people should be able to do whatever they want as long as it doesn't directly and negatively influence another person. Also, just because Marxism employed anti theistic tactics in the name of evil, doesn't mean that atheists and anti theists are like that. It's the whole deal with all squares being rectangles but not all rectangles being squares.
Just as much of a statement? Actually, not believing in a high power is NOT as much a statement. That is a fact, and it's a fact because we all start off like that when we're born. You did, I did, everyone. It's the default. The only reason anybody believes anything is because they've been told it or indoctrinated into it from the day they were born.
As for the burden of proof stance, I didn't mean to say "I don't know, but not that." I'm saying that nobody really knows, and if you think you do, you had better back it up with some really damn good evidence. Otherwise, it's not worth believing.
Title: Re: Atheism
Post by: Shark Jumper on June 01, 2014, 10:06:58 pm
Well, of course I think it's horrific, but I think it's downright untrue as well so it's irrelevant to me.
1. See point 7 then.
2. Of course there's no actual proof. Because if there was proof of a soul, that would be proof of God. And God doesn't want that. He wants faith. More on this later.
We know about the veil because we were told about it. Just as we were told about how the world began in Genesis and how Jesus went around, preaching the gospel in the New Testament. And the veil doesn't make you forget EVERYTHING, just everything that happened before you were born.
Yes, of course, beings are born and they die. Their bodies do decompose. I don't know exactly what you're claiming here or if you're asking something.
One thing you need to remember is that the body is a TOOL used by the soul. The soul is bound to it as long as the body is living. Like a computer. If the monitor goes out, does that mean the whole computer is broken? No. Just the monitor. When parts of the brain die, that means the soul can no longer make use of those parts. So, it effectively gets a "No Signal" from those parts of the brain. When the body ceases to live altogether, the body relinquishes its hold on the soul and the soul moves on to the Spirit World.
I should also add that the soul is indeed made of matter but a matter that's so refined and pure that it's impossible to see with our eyes or our tools.
Primal intelligences vary greatly in their potential. Not all of them are human. We don't know too much about them but we do know that they are infinite in number. So it wouldn't be a problem at all to fill this entire earth. So a primal intelligence is made into a soul which is usually assigned a time and place to be on an earth of some sort with a body. That is the basic process of how beings are, for lack of a better word, made.
3. See point 2.
4. Sorry, I wasn't being clear here. We existed at first as primal intelligences then we became fully fledged souls, then we obtained bodies, and so on. Finally, we reach a stage where we become gods ourselves. How that will work exactly, I don't really know. This is way down the line though. Like WAAAYYYYYYYYYY DDOOOOOOOOWWWWWNNNN the line.
5. lol No, no, no, no. Becoming perfect does not mean you need to be EXACTLY THE SAME as God himself. But again, remember the definition of perfection: to be whole and undamaged. To basically be better than yourself. So much to the point where you can no longer improve. Until you're an utter master of everything that was, is, and shall be. Everyone has flaws. The only one that didn't was Jesus Christ. Studying evolution is not a flaw. It's just what they're doing and has no real correlation with what we're discussing right now. One thing you also need to know is that while God is just, he is also merciful. He loves us completely and wants the absolute best for us. He is our HEAVENLY FATHER after all. His work is "to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." (Immortality and eternal life are two very separate things BTW. The former means you can no longer be split from your body which can no longer be damaged in any way and the latter means a life of a god.) His work isn't to condemn as many of us filthy humans as he can.
6. You're right. It would require more proof than that. But I also think you're misunderstanding me when I say "personal proof". I'll just relate to you my personal story of how I found out the church was REALLY true. Perhaps you'll understand then.
I was rather young when I first prayed. Must have been about, oh, 11 or 12 years old, give or take. I was riding off of my parents testimony that the church was true for so long, but finally, it stopped being a good reason to believe in the church. I knew that MILLIONS of people had prayed and received a confirmation of true in their hearts and I thought that was enough for me, but as time went on, it really wasn't. And that's when I knew I needed to pray and learn for myself. So, that night, I kneeled down in my bedroom and pray to know if the church was true, if the scriptures were true, and if Joseph Smith really was a true prophet of God, and man, I got hit by a metaphorical train that night.
This feeling I all of a sudden felt, it was so insanely strong. It was a feeling of pure, blissful happiness. Of love. Of amazing clarity. And it came out of nowhere. And then I knew in my heart that yes, the church was true, the scriptures were true, and Joseph was indeed a prophet. I knew down to the depths of my own soul. And ever since, that feeling and that moment has stayed with me my entire life. And even now, not too long ago, I experienced this same feeling again. Perhaps even a little stronger. I won't say how that came about though as that's another long story I don't have time for here.
And that's what I mean when I say "personal proof". You can have this confirmation too if you wanted. You just need to read the Book of Mormon at least somewhat and then pray with full purpose of heart and real intent (again, those two are important) and ask if it's true.
7. Mormonism is a growing religion too. Actually, it's one of the things that separates us from a bunch of other christian churches. Other churches say they have the Bible and they don't need any more of God's word. We take a MUCH more different stance. Specifically, we believe in literal continued revelation from God, whether it comes to us through the promptings of the Holy Ghost or through our prophet. So yes, Mormonism is always expanding as well.
Another thing you seem to think is that religion and science cannot exist together for some reason. Let me bring up a great quote I read a while ago.
Quote from: Kendal B. Hunter
There really is no such thing as "science." There are just various theories in various states of verification. Likewise, there are various religions, with various strengths. When we ask if science conflicts with religion, which apples are we comparing? The question itself needs to be questioned.
Your science is effective critical thinking and collaboration. Which is just fine. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. However, what I have a problem with is when people take some new theory that scientists put out and tout it as proof against religion. Yeah, I don't like that very much at all. Let's assume for just a second that Mormonism is completely true. Don't you think the conclusions we come to when practicing science should align with established truth?
Which leads me to one the things in Mormonism that I just love completely. The more you study it, the more you notice how much SENSE it all makes. It's beautiful really how everything connects in a seamless way. Everything has a purpose. Everything has a suitable reason. I don't find this with other religions or beliefs at all. They always seem to have SOMETHING wrong with them in my eyes. And there is proof besides the type I talked about above. But those are for later when you have faith.
There is one thing I'd like to bring up though and that is this: "When you accept the universe/life as being probably a giant fucking fluke, it becomes so much more wonderful and amazing."
I'm sorry but I REALLY don't understand this one bit. How would it be nice if the whole universe just happened because of random chance? That means everything we were, are, will be, and have done, is utterly POINTLESS. Everything would be pointless. How is ceasing to exist upon death a good thing in the slightest? It's not even a neutral thing. It's downright horrifying.
Anyway, I should add that a lot of the questions you're asking and subjects you're talking about are rather advanced stuff. Besides all that though, thanks. I'm glad you mean well and aren't just here to argue like a lot of people on the internet do. I appreciate that.
Hoo boy, let me be the one to start making these responses a bit shorter. XD Unless you really want to continue talking about the things that are a complete matter of faith/opinion, such as the afterlife and what God would want, I'm pretty finished there. I let you know all my thoughts and opinions, and you did the same for me. I'm sure we both learned something, which is good! ;D However, I think we've reached the point where we need to agree to disagree.
One tiny thing I wanted to mention was how you said that "you'll get more proof when you have more faith." That just put me off a little bit because the word faith, literally means believing in something without any evidence. Regardless, it's not that big a deal. ;)
Another thing you said was that I seem to think that religion and science cannot exist together. I'll say, it does seem that way, but it's not. I know they can exist together because they do today. It's just that I think as long as religion exists, it will be holding our species back, and keeping us stuck in older times.
Let's assume for just a second that Mormonism is completely true. Don't you think the conclusions we come to when practicing science should align with established truth? Could you please rephrase this? I didn't understand. :-\
You said, There is one thing I'd like to bring up though and that is this: "When you accept the universe/life as being probably a giant fucking fluke, it becomes so much more wonderful and amazing."
I'm sorry but I REALLY don't understand this one bit. How would it be nice if the whole universe just happened because of random chance? That means everything we were, are, will be, and have done, is utterly POINTLESS. Everything would be pointless. How is ceasing to exist upon death a good thing in the slightest? It's not even a neutral thing. It's downright horrifying.
Oh, I think you do understand it. You just don't agree with it. There's nothing to misunderstand about what I said because all I did was state my opinion. Allow me to try to explain why I think that, in a way that you might be able to get more out of. I think that life becomes much more amazing and beautiful when you see it through the eyes of an atheist, as in being a fluke. I think this because in a universe without purpose or meaning, the Earth didn't have to be like this. It didn't have to be beautiful and amazing and able to support life, but it is. So yeah, I think it's really nice that the whole universe happened by chance, and everything is pointless. Pointless is fucking fantastic, because that means you create your own meaning in life. There's no all powerful being that can convict you of thought crime while you sleep. There's no set list of rules you need to live in fear of, facing everlasting torment or paradise after your life if you disobey. There's no real right or wrong. There's just life. This is your one and only life to live, so be magnificent! You didn't have to be alive, but you are, and nobody fucking knows why! ;D And I think that's beautiful, not horrific.
As for death, well, let me direct you to my friend Mark Twain. Mr. Twain, would you? “I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.” ― Mark Twain
My goodness Arnox, I really do love talking with you. It's such a great thing to have a sensible discussion. :D
Title: Re: Atheism
Post by: burroughs on June 01, 2014, 10:27:11 pm
Also, just because Marxism employed anti theistic tactics in the name of evil, doesn't mean that atheists and anti theists are like that. It's the whole deal with all squares being rectangles but not all rectangles being squares.
Just as much of a statement? Actually, not believing in a high power is NOT as much a statement. That is a fact, and it's a fact because we all start off like that when we're born. You did, I did, everyone. It's the default. The only reason anybody believes anything is because they've been told it or indoctrinated into it from the day they were born.
Your rant against Christianity becomes null and void, then.
I'd actually argue that people are born more naturally agnostic than atheist. Your arguments are all specifically rejecting some other idea, become someone else told you about some nice old white guy in the sky that you chose to not believe in. The default is a lack of knowledge in anything.
Title: Re: Atheism
Post by: Shark Jumper on June 01, 2014, 10:45:33 pm
Also, just because Marxism employed anti theistic tactics in the name of evil, doesn't mean that atheists and anti theists are like that. It's the whole deal with all squares being rectangles but not all rectangles being squares.
Just as much of a statement? Actually, not believing in a high power is NOT as much a statement. That is a fact, and it's a fact because we all start off like that when we're born. You did, I did, everyone. It's the default. The only reason anybody believes anything is because they've been told it or indoctrinated into it from the day they were born.
Your rant against Christianity becomes null and void, then.
I'd actually argue that people are born more naturally agnostic than atheist. Your arguments are all specifically rejecting some other idea, become someone else told you about some nice old white guy in the sky that you chose to not believe in. The default is a lack of knowledge in anything.
No, my being against Christianity is not null and void. This is because there are specific parts of Christianity that employ fear based control and servitude to a mighty celestial dictator. Atheism has none of that, making it a negligible factor when determining the morality of a society that identifies as it.
Also I never said people were born atheist. I just said they're born not believing. So yeah, agnosticy atheistish whatever seems good! ;)
Title: Re: Atheism
Post by: burroughs on June 01, 2014, 10:57:42 pm
No, my being against Christianity is not null and void. This is because there are specific parts of Christianity that employ fear based control and servitude to a mighty celestial dictator. Atheism has none of that, making it a negligible factor when determining the morality of a society that identifies as it.
No, there are specific Christian denominations that think like that and promote those teachings...
Title: Re: Atheism
Post by: Shark Jumper on June 02, 2014, 12:54:52 am
No, my being against Christianity is not null and void. This is because there are specific parts of Christianity that employ fear based control and servitude to a mighty celestial dictator. Atheism has none of that, making it a negligible factor when determining the morality of a society that identifies as it.
No, there are specific Christian denominations that think like that and promote those teachings...
Yeah. More of the literalists like the WBC.
Title: Re: Atheism
Post by: Arnox on June 02, 2014, 09:34:19 pm
Hoo boy, let me be the one to start making these responses a bit shorter. XD Unless you really want to continue talking about the things that are a complete matter of faith/opinion, such as the afterlife and what God would want, I'm pretty finished there. I let you know all my thoughts and opinions, and you did the same for me. I'm sure we both learned something, which is good! ;D However, I think we've reached the point where we need to agree to disagree.
One tiny thing I wanted to mention was how you said that "you'll get more proof when you have more faith." That just put me off a little bit because the word faith, literally means believing in something without any evidence. Regardless, it's not that big a deal. ;)
Another thing you said was that I seem to think that religion and science cannot exist together. I'll say, it does seem that way, but it's not. I know they can exist together because they do today. It's just that I think as long as religion exists, it will be holding our species back, and keeping us stuck in older times.
Let's assume for just a second that Mormonism is completely true. Don't you think the conclusions we come to when practicing science should align with established truth? Could you please rephrase this? I didn't understand. :-\
You said, There is one thing I'd like to bring up though and that is this: "When you accept the universe/life as being probably a giant fucking fluke, it becomes so much more wonderful and amazing."
I'm sorry but I REALLY don't understand this one bit. How would it be nice if the whole universe just happened because of random chance? That means everything we were, are, will be, and have done, is utterly POINTLESS. Everything would be pointless. How is ceasing to exist upon death a good thing in the slightest? It's not even a neutral thing. It's downright horrifying.
Oh, I think you do understand it. You just don't agree with it. There's nothing to misunderstand about what I said because all I did was state my opinion. Allow me to try to explain why I think that, in a way that you might be able to get more out of. I think that life becomes much more amazing and beautiful when you see it through the eyes of an atheist, as in being a fluke. I think this because in a universe without purpose or meaning, the Earth didn't have to be like this. It didn't have to be beautiful and amazing and able to support life, but it is. So yeah, I think it's really nice that the whole universe happened by chance, and everything is pointless. Pointless is fucking fantastic, because that means you create your own meaning in life. There's no all powerful being that can convict you of thought crime while you sleep. There's no set list of rules you need to live in fear of, facing everlasting torment or paradise after your life if you disobey. There's no real right or wrong. There's just life. This is your one and only life to live, so be magnificent! You didn't have to be alive, but you are, and nobody fucking knows why! ;D And I think that's beautiful, not horrific.
As for death, well, let me direct you to my friend Mark Twain. Mr. Twain, would you? “I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.” ― Mark Twain
My goodness Arnox, I really do love talking with you. It's such a great thing to have a sensible discussion. :D
Sounds good.
1. Nah, you can have a little bit of evidence and still have faith. There must always be some room for doubt though. Otherwise, it's not faith anymore. It's knowledge.
2. Mormonism doesn't resist scientific progress in any way that I know of, discounting unethical experiments of course. I don't see how Mormonism would hold us back as a species in any way. Actually, on the contrary, I think it would propel us FORWARD.
3. Well, let's bring up human evolution. Assuming again that you know Mormonism is right for a second here, wouldn't you reject that idea?
4. Oh, I see now. You like it because it justifies everything. And it does. But let me ask you something. Are you an anarchist? I'm guessing no. So you believe in some laws. Why? Well, so we can maintain order and a better system and environment for as many people as we can, right?
This is the same principle here. The commandments are given to HELP us. Not to order us around. God is trying to give us the recipe for the most ideal perfect life you could possibly imagine. We just need to choose to follow it. But hey, if you don't believe they're the way to the most ideal life, that's fine. I'm just sayin' though. The laws are there to help and guide us. Not restrict. And personally, I'm actually glad I've followed the ones I have. Adhering to them has allowed me to avoid SO many problems and has led me into situations and to things I would not have obtained had I not adhered to those commandments.
Nevertheless, it's our choice. And that's the beauty of it. We CHOOSE our exact fate. And the coolest part? You'll be completely satisfied with the outcome. Why? Because the path you take is the one most suited to you. And the consequences that follow are the ones that are suited to you as well. It's the perfect system.
5. But you've already experienced life. You know now that life is infinitely better than nothing. Heck, I could even prove this by super simple math.
3 and 0. Which is more? 3 over 0. 3 is how many times more than 0? Infinite.
So, you've already experienced what "3" is like and it's more than "0" obviously. And now, you're telling me that you don't mind going back to 0? Forever? And please don't tell me something along the lines of, 'I'm not gonna care when I'm dead.' I'm talking about right now. Does pure everlasting nothingness really appeal to you as an ending fate?
And again, I enjoy talking to you too. ^^
Title: Re: Atheism
Post by: Shark Jumper on June 04, 2014, 05:50:33 pm
1. Nah, you can have a little bit of evidence and still have faith. There must always be some room for doubt though. Otherwise, it's not faith anymore. It's knowledge.
2. Mormonism doesn't resist scientific progress in any way that I know of, discounting unethical experiments of course. I don't see how Mormonism would hold us back as a species in any way. Actually, on the contrary, I think it would propel us FORWARD.
3. Well, let's bring up human evolution. Assuming again that you know Mormonism is right for a second here, wouldn't you reject that idea?
4. Oh, I see now. You like it because it justifies everything. And it does. But let me ask you something. Are you an anarchist? I'm guessing no. So you believe in some laws. Why? Well, so we can maintain order and a better system and environment for as many people as we can, right?
This is the same principle here. The commandments are given to HELP us. Not to order us around. God is trying to give us the recipe for the most ideal perfect life you could possibly imagine. We just need to choose to follow it. But hey, if you don't believe they're the way to the most ideal life, that's fine. I'm just sayin' though. The laws are there to help and guide us. Not restrict. And personally, I'm actually glad I've followed the ones I have. Adhering to them has allowed me to avoid SO many problems and has led me into situations and to things I would not have obtained had I not adhered to those commandments.
Nevertheless, it's our choice. And that's the beauty of it. We CHOOSE our exact fate. And the coolest part? You'll be completely satisfied with the outcome. Why? Because the path you take is the one most suited to you. And the consequences that follow are the ones that are suited to you as well. It's the perfect system.
5. But you've already experienced life. You know now that life is infinitely better than nothing. Heck, I could even prove this by super simple math.
3 and 0. Which is more? 3 over 0. 3 is how many times more than 0? Infinite.
So, you've already experienced what "3" is like and it's more than "0" obviously. And now, you're telling me that you don't mind going back to 0? Forever? And please don't tell me something along the lines of, 'I'm not gonna care when I'm dead.' I'm talking about right now. Does pure everlasting nothingness really appeal to you as an ending fate?
And again, I enjoy talking to you too. ^^
1. Ok! ;)
2. Usually I'm discussing these concepts with Christians, and I will tell that their belief holds the world back by teaching people to be satisfied with not knowing the truths about the world. With Mormonism though, which I'm not too familiar with, I cannot make that claim with the same degree of certainty that I have when using it against Christians. I'm curious to hear though, why you think it would propel us forwards? ???
3. I'm suppose if it were certain that Mormonism was true, I would reject the idea of evolution. However, I don't see what that question is meant to prove, because there is quite a good deal of evidence supporting evolution as fact, and there is very little evidence supporting Mormonism as fact. Also, evolution just flat out makes sense and is observable. -I'm afraid my not seeing the point of this question may be due to improper interpretation of the question. Was the answer I provided adequate?
4. I don't like it because it justifies everything. I don't believe that it justifies everything, but more along the lines of makes it so that there are no consequences. I like this because it puts people in charge of their own lives, and it puts the human race in charge of its own fate. Nobody forces a universal law or owns any person. They are human beings who own themselves. Also, to answer your question, I actually do consider myself to be a bit of an anarchist. Anarchy has several different definitions however. The one I am talking about is when referring to a society without a publicly enforced government. I think that nearly every government results in becoming a corrupt tyrannical power house that treat its people like cattle. However, like you said, lawlessness does cause a bit of a problem. But there is a solution. There can be laws without a government if a society agrees upon them, and part of what I don't like about religions like Christianity and Mormonism, is that they assert that humans are incapable of doing that on their own. Those religions are saying, "The Human Race can't stop themselves from killing and stealing unless we force them to." That's called self degradation, and it's not a good thing. The laws that this society would agree on by itself would most likely be ones that are sensible such as, no rape, no murder unless in self defense, no stealing, no torturing animals. The society's people would come together to act against an offender, instead of having an overpowered force do so. That's enough of me envisioning an idealistic society though! ;) As for the commandments, most of them have got the right idea by banning murder and thievery. Like I said though, Humans are capable of being moral without Big Brother, whom they must love and fear at the same time. I think that without religion, some time along the line of human societal development people would have gotten together and said, "Hey everyone, let's not kill each other, and let's not take each other's shit. Okay?" As for some of the other commandments, there are some iffy ones though, like saying that you cannot work on Sunday, or that you MUST worship God. I mean really?
5. By no means does everlasting nothingness seem appealing to me. I'm really not looking forwards to it, and sometimes find myself feeling very saddened or even a little bit nervous about the impending nothingness that awaits all living creatures. :-\ However, just because I find a concept uncomfortable, that's no reason to not believe in it. If you ignore all the things that make you uneasy, you're gonna have a bad time.
Regardless, I feel incredibly honored to have been lucky enough to be a human for the few years that I will have in this universe. It's just so fucking cool! Even if it only lasts for 70-80ish years, I'm a conscious human, and that's fucking awesome! ;D The only comfort I have when regarding death is that when I'm dead, I wont even know it. I also find comfort in knowing that the atoms that used to make up my body will be recycled into the universe and used for other things. It's actually a pretty cool concept, I think. :)
Good talkin'! :3
Title: Re: Atheism
Post by: Arnox on June 07, 2014, 04:33:46 am
2. Usually I'm discussing these concepts with Christians, and I will tell that their belief holds the world back by teaching people to be satisfied with not knowing the truths about the world. With Mormonism though, which I'm not too familiar with, I cannot make that claim with the same degree of certainty that I have when using it against Christians. I'm curious to hear though, why you think it would propel us forwards? ???
3. I'm suppose if it were certain that Mormonism was true, I would reject the idea of evolution. However, I don't see what that question is meant to prove, because there is quite a good deal of evidence supporting evolution as fact, and there is very little evidence supporting Mormonism as fact. Also, evolution just flat out makes sense and is observable. -I'm afraid my not seeing the point of this question may be due to improper interpretation of the question. Was the answer I provided adequate?
4. I don't like it because it justifies everything. I don't believe that it justifies everything, but more along the lines of makes it so that there are no consequences. I like this because it puts people in charge of their own lives, and it puts the human race in charge of its own fate. Nobody forces a universal law or owns any person. They are human beings who own themselves. Also, to answer your question, I actually do consider myself to be a bit of an anarchist. Anarchy has several different definitions however. The one I am talking about is when referring to a society without a publicly enforced government. I think that nearly every government results in becoming a corrupt tyrannical power house that treat its people like cattle. However, like you said, lawlessness does cause a bit of a problem. But there is a solution. There can be laws without a government if a society agrees upon them, and part of what I don't like about religions like Christianity and Mormonism, is that they assert that humans are incapable of doing that on their own. Those religions are saying, "The Human Race can't stop themselves from killing and stealing unless we force them to." That's called self degradation, and it's not a good thing. The laws that this society would agree on by itself would most likely be ones that are sensible such as, no rape, no murder unless in self defense, no stealing, no torturing animals. The society's people would come together to act against an offender, instead of having an overpowered force do so. That's enough of me envisioning an idealistic society though! ;) As for the commandments, most of them have got the right idea by banning murder and thievery. Like I said though, Humans are capable of being moral without Big Brother, whom they must love and fear at the same time. I think that without religion, some time along the line of human societal development people would have gotten together and said, "Hey everyone, let's not kill each other, and let's not take each other's shit. Okay?" As for some of the other commandments, there are some iffy ones though, like saying that you cannot work on Sunday, or that you MUST worship God. I mean really?
5. By no means does everlasting nothingness seem appealing to me. I'm really not looking forwards to it, and sometimes find myself feeling very saddened or even a little bit nervous about the impending nothingness that awaits all living creatures. :-\ However, just because I find a concept uncomfortable, that's no reason to not believe in it. If you ignore all the things that make you uneasy, you're gonna have a bad time.
Regardless, I feel incredibly honored to have been lucky enough to be a human for the few years that I will have in this universe. It's just so fucking cool! Even if it only lasts for 70-80ish years, I'm a conscious human, and that's fucking awesome! ;D The only comfort I have when regarding death is that when I'm dead, I wont even know it. I also find comfort in knowing that the atoms that used to make up my body will be recycled into the universe and used for other things. It's actually a pretty cool concept, I think. :)
Good talkin'! :3
2. Because Mormonism teaches one to think logically (believe it or not). Also, and this is my opinion, I believe that since Mormonism is based on fundamental truths, we can use it as more established truth to build off of.
3. Eh, there's no real point to this other than you seeing my point of view a little bit.
4. Actually it does justify all actions since nothing matters. There are no morals because it will all amount to the same thing in the end. Death, which is the end of all.
But besides that, you know what? I know exactly what you mean. You want to do what you want to do. You are master of your own life. Period. I can understand that. I can sympathize. Who cares what some stupid ancient book says you should do? Why should you owe allegiance to some mysterious deity who doesn't even have the decency to show himself? Screw that, you've got better things to do. You have your life to live and you're going to live it to its fullest.
You believe that others should also come to this belief. You reason that if they realized what they were missing, if they just realized that they aren't really beholden to anyone or anything at all, they could be free too, just as you are.
I understand.
And it's tempting to believe. Incredibly so in fact. And it even makes a good amount of sense at first glance which just broadens its appeal. But man, I'm sorry but I know better (http://www.intosanctuary.com/index.php?topic=170.msg1233#msg1233). (6.) And even further, I've seen the effects of disobeying the commandments and I know its effects intimately. It's great at first, when you're sinning, but sooner or later, the consequences WILL begin to rear their ugly head. Over and over and over again. I've seen it. And, SJ, my friend, did I ever tell you the definition of insanity (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHjKjw5jARo)?
5. No, you shouldn't ignore truth at all, no matter what it is. You're right. I was just trying to prove in this point how horrible nonexistence would be as a fate. And it's good that you love life. It's great. Mormonism is about having MORE of that. Not less. If you can believe it. And yes, it makes sense. I'm not defending it here simply because it sounds nice. It all makes perfect sense to me.
Sorry it took so long to reply.
Title: Re: Atheism
Post by: Infinityshock on June 07, 2014, 12:35:34 pm
If you're so sure of the existence of some magical mystical invisible friend, post on single verifiable shred of evidence
Title: Re: Atheism
Post by: Arnox on June 07, 2014, 03:05:46 pm
2. Because Mormonism teaches one to think logically (believe it or not). Also, and this is my opinion, I believe that since Mormonism is based on fundamental truths, we can use it as more established truth to build off of.
3. Eh, there's no real point to this other than you seeing my point of view a little bit.
4. Actually it does justify all actions since nothing matters. There are no morals because it will all amount to the same thing in the end. Death, which is the end of all.
But besides that, you know what? I know exactly what you mean. You want to do what you want to do. You are master of your own life. Period. I can understand that. I can sympathize. Who cares what some stupid ancient book says you should do? Why should you owe allegiance to some mysterious deity who doesn't even have the decency to show himself? Screw that, you've got better things to do. You have your life to live and you're going to live it to its fullest.
You believe that others should also come to this belief. You reason that if they realized what they were missing, if they just realized that they aren't really beholden to anyone or anything at all, they could be free too, just as you are.
I understand.
And it's tempting to believe. Incredibly so in fact. And it even makes a good amount of sense at first glance which just broadens its appeal. But man, I'm sorry but I know better (http://www.intosanctuary.com/index.php?topic=170.msg1233#msg1233). (6.) And even further, I've seen the effects of disobeying the commandments and I know its effects intimately. It's great at first, when you're sinning, but sooner or later, the consequences WILL begin to rear their ugly head. Over and over and over again. I've seen it. And, SJ, my friend, did I ever tell you the definition of insanity (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHjKjw5jARo)?
5. No, you shouldn't ignore truth at all, no matter what it is. You're right. I was just trying to prove in this point how horrible nonexistence would be as a fate. And it's good that you love life. It's great. Mormonism is about having MORE of that. Not less. If you can believe it. And yes, it makes sense. I'm not defending it here simply because it sounds nice. It all makes perfect sense to me.
Sorry it took so long to reply.
2. Can I hear some examples of how Mormonism teaches people to think logically? I'm curious.
3. Get it. Got it. Good.
4. I wasn't saying it doesn't justify everything, I was just saying that wasn't the reason I like it. I like it because, as I said, the only morals that exist are those we create for ourselves, which the human race is fully capable of rationally doing. A good basic guideline is to ask yourself, "Would I like it very much if that guy did X to me? Yikes, I don't think so. We probably shouldn't to X to each other."
As for what I believe about life, you've got it spot on. I am not a slave. I am not a instrument to His will. I'm a human being, damn it. My life has value. While I do believe that everyone else should also see the value and complete badassy awesomeness of their own ironic existence, I fully enforce the right to believe whatever you want, so long as you do not use that belief to hurt or negatively influence others. ;D
As for disobeying the commandments. I'm not really worried about that, as I don't believe in an afterlife. I've been living great (sinning?) for the past 5 years of my life, totally disobeying religious rules, and I've never been happier in my entire life. When exactly are these negative consequences supposed to begin? ::) (No offense to you at all, I just find the idea a bit silly.) ;)
And yes, I do know the definition of insanity. (I like Vaas. Vaas is cool. ;D) Doing the same thing over and over again hoping for a change that will not come. Kind of like how people pray, hoping for it to make a difference. If God has a master plan, and his will is going to be done no matter what, then praying means nothing. Does it not? (I realize this may be one of my arguments that only works on Christians)
Shark Jumper used Prayer Fallacy! It's not very effective. Arnox used Mormon Kindness! It's super effective! ;D
5. Yeeah. Nonexistence really sucks. Kinda scared of that. :-[ But I must push onward into the unknown, like every great human being before me! 8)
But, I simply find no reason to believe in something that is yet to present me with any viable evidence other than saying to simply believe harder. :-\
Good talkin'
Title: Re: Atheism
Post by: inflnityshock on June 15, 2014, 12:13:23 am
im still waiting for anyone to produce any evidence that any sort of deity exists. that BS posted by the HNIC claiming his evidence was valid...isnt valid
Title: Re: Atheism
Post by: Arnox on June 15, 2014, 09:55:39 pm
2. Can I hear some examples of how Mormonism teaches people to think logically? I'm curious.
3. Get it. Got it. Good.
4. I wasn't saying it doesn't justify everything, I was just saying that wasn't the reason I like it. I like it because, as I said, the only morals that exist are those we create for ourselves, which the human race is fully capable of rationally doing. A good basic guideline is to ask yourself, "Would I like it very much if that guy did X to me? Yikes, I don't think so. We probably shouldn't to X to each other."
As for what I believe about life, you've got it spot on. I am not a slave. I am not a instrument to His will. I'm a human being, damn it. My life has value. While I do believe that everyone else should also see the value and complete badassy awesomeness of their own ironic existence, I fully enforce the right to believe whatever you want, so long as you do not use that belief to hurt or negatively influence others. ;D
As for disobeying the commandments. I'm not really worried about that, as I don't believe in an afterlife. I've been living great (sinning?) for the past 5 years of my life, totally disobeying religious rules, and I've never been happier in my entire life. When exactly are these negative consequences supposed to begin? ::) (No offense to you at all, I just find the idea a bit silly.) ;)
And yes, I do know the definition of insanity. (I like Vaas. Vaas is cool. ;D) Doing the same thing over and over again hoping for a change that will not come. Kind of like how people pray, hoping for it to make a difference. If God has a master plan, and his will is going to be done no matter what, then praying means nothing. Does it not? (I realize this may be one of my arguments that only works on Christians)
Shark Jumper used Prayer Fallacy! It's not very effective. Arnox used Mormon Kindness! It's super effective! ;D
5. Yeeah. Nonexistence really sucks. Kinda scared of that. :-[ But I must push onward into the unknown, like every great human being before me! 8)
But, I simply find no reason to believe in something that is yet to present me with any viable evidence other than saying to simply believe harder. :-\
Good talkin'
2. Well, for one, all of our base beliefs can be explained very logically. It is generally expected of us that we should know the WHY, not just the what. We are also commanded to seek after all truth, regardless of its form, through study. We are taught to be calm and rational. To consider as many viewpoints as possible before coming to a conclusion. And finally, we augment all of this through prayer, personal revelation, and keeping up with our physical well-being.
4. But why should you care about morals at all when they're meaningless? Who cares what that other person would think if you did something? You're not that person. He needs to fend for himself. Just as you fend for yourself.
If you don't mind, why don't you tell me how you've 'sinned' exactly. I could lay out the likely consequences for you.
As to prayer, we don't hope for it to make a difference. We pray and then we simply leave it all in Gods hands as to what he thinks is best. This is an essential part of becoming truly happy. To give your will to him. To accept whatever is given you, for good and for ill instead of assuming that you know what's best for you.
His overall will will be done, yes. But he sent us here to make choices. Choosing to pray to him for help is part of those choices. You choose whether or not you want his help or not.
5. Once again, read the BoM and pray. Then you can know.
Once again, sorry for the late, late reply. Hope you're still around.
Title: Re: Atheism
Post by: Shark Jumper on June 16, 2014, 12:58:54 am
2. Well, for one, all of our base beliefs can be explained very logically. It is generally expected of us that we should know the WHY, not just the what. We are also commanded to seek after all truth, regardless of its form, through study. We are taught to be calm and rational. To consider as many viewpoints as possible before coming to a conclusion. And finally, we augment all of this through prayer, personal revelation, and keeping up with our physical well-being.
4. But why should you care about morals at all when they're meaningless? Who cares what that other person would think if you did something? You're not that person. He needs to fend for himself. Just as you fend for yourself.
If you don't mind, why don't you tell me how you've 'sinned' exactly. I could lay out the likely consequences for you.
As to prayer, we don't hope for it to make a difference. We pray and then we simply leave it all in Gods hands as to what he thinks is best. This is an essential part of becoming truly happy. To give your will to him. To accept whatever is given you, for good and for ill instead of assuming that you know what's best for you.
His overall will will be done, yes. But he sent us here to make choices. Choosing to pray to him for help is part of those choices. You choose whether or not you want his help or not.
5. Once again, read the BoM and pray. Then you can know.
Once again, sorry for the late, late reply. Hope you're still around.
Yay, these are finally getting shorter! I was gone for a bit getting ready to learn how to fly planes, but I'm back now! ;D
2. You say you seek the truth through study, but all you've told me to do since I've asked you what your basis or reason is, is to read the BoM and pray really hard. Then, I'm supposed to wait until I have "a feeling of happiness", and that's my signal that God is real and Mormonism is the one true religion out of millions that have come before it? I'm sorry, I'm just having so much trouble wrapping my head around how that can be considered logical. You keep on saying that they can be explained logically, so please. Please, I ask you, just take five minutes to type it out and explain it to me. Don't just keep telling me that it can be explained. Actually do it. Make me see your reasoning.
4. Why should I care about morals when they're meaningless, you ask? Well, just because a God didn't give a moral meaning, doesn't mean it is meaningless. People can and do bestow meaning upon morals, and have been doing it for as long as morals have existed. For example, violence brings pain and sadness to people. Since not very many people like pain and sadness, it can be agreed that a good common moral is to avoid violence when interacting with your fellow humans. Another example could be kindness. People often like when people are kind to them. In response, the favor is often returned. This moral of kindness has been given meaning by people because it makes us happy. What it really comes down to is brain science, and how certain actions make people react positively or negatively.
How I've sinned? Well, there's pride. Apparently, it's one of the worst of the sins, but I don't see anything wrong with reveling in your own awesomeness when you achieve something great. There's also envy. I'd be lying if I said that I haven't wished I had some things that other people have. There's the first commandment being broken, by me not even believing in God. I guess I take the lord's name in vain every time I say "God fuckin' damnit." I usually don't though, because I prefer other exclamations. I work on Sundays. I covet lots of stuff. Like I said though, you're just wasting your time if you lay out all the consequences. I don't believe in any of them.
On to prayer. So, you're saying that not only does every single Mormon hope to change nothing by praying, but you all pray knowing that He wont even listen? You go on to say that you choose whether or not you want his help, even though your wanting it makes no difference as to whether or not it will be given? My goodness, this whole thing is just ripe with logical fallacies. I'm sorry to say this, but the whole concept of prayer just seems so poorly thought out by the guy who invented it.
5. No. No I can't know by just reading a book and hoping for something to be true.
Title: Re: Atheism
Post by: Sirfearoth on August 03, 2014, 05:21:42 pm
If you're so sure of the existence of some magical mystical invisible friend, post on single verifiable shred of evidence
The double slit experiment would be the best thing I could think of that could hint at the existence of a "God" or some type "magical mystical invisible friend." It was an experiment originally used to see if photons "light" was a particle or wave. In the 60s and 70s some physicists tried the same thing with electrons. They fired electrons at a plate that had 2 slits in it and on the other side was sensor to see where they hit. Now if electrons were particles you would have 2 lines on the sensor. What they found was that they had multiple lines on the sensor which indicated that electrons were acting like waves and not particles. Meaning the electrons are going through both slits at the same time. They then fired the electrons 1 at a time and still they had the wave like pattern on the sensor. So they put a sensor between the plate and the target/sensor to see which slit they were going through. What they saw when they started firing electrons again , 1 at a time, was a 2 slit pattern. Meaning they were going through 1 slit, and not both. Then they unplugged the sensor and tried it again they got the multiple slit pattern again. Meaning the electrons knew when they were being watched. Which would indicate that the electrons themselves are conscious or are being directed by some conscious force/being.
If you don't know or understand anything about quantum mechanics just watch a youtube video. If you still can't understand turn off you fucking TV, facebook, G+, or any other type of mass electronic media (mind control) and start reading some fucking books.
“I don't know what God is, but I know what God isn't!"
Title: Re: Atheism
Post by: Arnox on August 03, 2014, 08:06:46 pm
Darn it! I forgot about this thread but I wonder now if Shark Jumper is even here anymore.
The double slit experiment would be the best thing I could think of that could hint at the existence of a "God" or some type "magical mystical invisible friend." It was an experiment originally used to see if photons "light" was a particle or wave. In the 60s and 70s some physicists tried the same thing with electrons. They fired electrons at a plate that had 2 slits in it and on the other side was sensor to see where they hit. Now if electrons were particles you would have 2 lines on the sensor. What they found was that they had multiple lines on the sensor which indicated that electrons were acting like waves and not particles. Meaning the electrons are going through both slits at the same time. They then fired the electrons 1 at a time and still they had the wave like pattern on the sensor. So they put a sensor between the plate and the target/sensor to see which slit they were going through. What they saw when they started firing electrons again , 1 at a time, was a 2 slit pattern. Meaning they were going through 1 slit, and not both. Then they unplugged the sensor and tried it again they got the multiple slit pattern again. Meaning the electrons knew when they were being watched. Which would indicate that the electrons themselves are conscious or are being directed by some conscious force/being.
If you don't know or understand anything about quantum mechanics just watch a youtube video. If you still can't understand turn off you fucking TV, facebook, G+, or any other type of mass electronic media (mind control) and start reading some fucking books.
“I don't know what God is, but I know what God isn't!"
If you look closely, you start to find that everything is just a little too convenient and well built. Some of the top scientists have verified this view.
Title: Re: Atheism
Post by: Shark Jumper on August 04, 2014, 08:40:08 pm
Yeah, I'm still here. I've just been busy getting prepared for college.
Title: Re: Atheism
Post by: unbreakable matter on September 02, 2014, 02:15:45 pm
holy shit, the admin is literally a morman
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfwInLOY6sA
there are also neckbearded atheists here
buddhist master race reporting in
Title: Re: Atheism
Post by: splooge gook on September 02, 2014, 02:48:13 pm
my parents are both atheists, so naturally, i am one as well
Title: Re: Atheism
Post by: unbreakable matter on September 02, 2014, 03:00:14 pm
my parents are both atheists, so naturally, i am one as well
have you ever been inside a church?
Title: Re: Atheism
Post by: splooge gook on September 02, 2014, 03:06:42 pm
i volunteered at a church theatrical production and tried to hook up with a 13 year old girl
(http://i.imgur.com/cIbOeVX.jpg)
i officially broke it off today by texting her "nvm"
Title: Re: Atheism
Post by: unbreakable matter on September 02, 2014, 03:12:03 pm
Lol, that's kinda nuts. I've only been inside one a handful of times and I dig the architecture. One looked like its ceiling was the inside of a ship IIRC. There is a christian "science" center near my university I'm gonna go inside sometime. There's a Scientology temple in the neighborhood I grew up in too but they're super secretive
Title: Re: Atheism
Post by: joe camel on September 02, 2014, 03:14:17 pm
That is one ugly bitch
Title: Re: Atheism
Post by: alphadog1 on September 05, 2014, 12:54:22 pm
People tend to look down on someone who claims to be an atheist, at least here in the good ole USA . I identify myself as a secular humanist . If pushed , I admit to being an " atheist leaning agnostic " .
Title: Re: Atheism
Post by: Township Rebellion on September 12, 2014, 12:42:42 am
It's not home if I can't talk about religion.
I was raised in a christian science household. I used to hold religious beliefs throughout my childhood basically out of the fear of death. I was scared of the unknown. This fear intensified throughout adolescence as I discovered the plausiblity that pretty much everything I was taught was completely false, just a collection of unproven ideas passed down through generations. I constantly reconfigured my beliefs until my early 20's; faith had taken such a toll psychologically I could no longer take the stress of regularly second guessing myself. I knew the answer: religion is just made up. A mixture of superstition and emotional manipulation. All based on the fear of the unknown. So I gave up on using faith in the place of simple rationality and critical thinking, and essentially went atheist/agnostic. I think once the whole world realizes that what they truly "feel" to be right is really little more than a feeling rather than a fact, then maybe humans can free themselves from this preposterous conflict of interest over our various interpretations of a magical sky entity that supposedly created us.
Title: Re: Atheism
Post by: unbreakable matter on September 12, 2014, 06:04:44 pm
Lol, that's kinda nuts. I've only been inside one a handful of times and I dig the architecture. One looked like its ceiling was the inside of a ship IIRC. There is a christian "science" center near my university I'm gonna go inside sometime. There's a Scientology temple in the neighborhood I grew up in too but they're super secretive
didn't you fuck an african girl who didn't have aids with a vaccine and a condom and still got aids?? and malaria too. why don't they just eat themselves if their starvation quotient is so high (45 standard deviations about the average, which is 1000)
Title: Re: Atheism
Post by: splooge gook on September 13, 2014, 02:22:49 am